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Rockin’ The Code World with dotNetDave ft. Bob Reselman - Ep. 87
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Oct 30, 2023
Join us on September 9 with David McCarter & Bob Reselman for the next episode of Rockin' The Code World with dotNetDave - a weekly show to learn & live Q&A focused on .NET and other programming technologies. AGENDA • Introduction • What it's like to be slinging code in tech in your 60's • Wrap up GUEST SPEAKER Bob Reselman is a nationally known software developer, system architect, researcher, and technical writer/journalist. Bob has written a number of books on computer programming and dozens of articles about topics related to software development technologies and techniques, as well as the culture of software development. He is a regular contributor to TheServerSide, Blockchain Journal, Instruqt, DevOps.com as well as a number of other websites. Bob lives in Los Angeles. Bob is also the creator of the cartoon Roelbob which appears weekly on DevOps.com and Digital CxO. C# Corner - Community of Software and Data Developers https://www.c-sharpcorner.com #CSharpCorner #rockinthecodeworld #live #dotnet
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Thank you
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Thank you
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Thank you
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Welcome, geeks, to another exciting episode of Rockin' the Code World with Donna Dave
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I'm David McCarter. I'm glad you're here. If my voice is a little bit off, I apologize
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I caught a cold flu something last week when I was in Denmark
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and I'm still trying to recover from that. But the show has to go on, so I'm here
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So, and my special guest today, I've been looking forward to the show is Bob Russellman
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Gosh, I can't even talk already. And I've known Bob for a while because he also lives in Southern California and briefly worked on a contract with him once
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And he's going to be talking about slinging code in your 60s, which is an important topic that I wanted to have
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And I know if you're a younger developer and you're watching right now, don't tune away, okay
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Because, you know, I wished that people were having, you know, such, you know, talks like this when I was a younger developer to prepare me for what I'm experiencing now
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because, you know, I don't know what Bob will say, but, you know, being a developer in this world
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the longer you are, actually the harder it is to find a job
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and to get, you know, people to pay your worth and everything
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And so I'm having a hard time navigating this last part of my career
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And so hopefully Bob will give us some good tips or we can discuss. And hopefully you might have some tips out there
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if you're an older developer. But if you're a younger developer, keep watching
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because you need to start thinking about this now because it's going to happen
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So this is show number 87, September 9th. And like I said, I'm glad you're all here
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And like I mentioned, you know, last week, I was in Copenhagen, Denmark
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for the Copenhagen Developers Festival. It's the very first one that NDC Conferences has done
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this new kind of special format where not only are they doing conference sessions
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but they're doing a lot of different types of conference sessions. If you go to their website, like building guitars and spaceships and lots of different things like that
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But the conference days lasted from like 9 a.m. until almost midnight every night
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because the nighttime was the festival part with bands, games, food, beer, wine
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And I had a really good time. Not only did I catch up with a lot of people I haven't seen in a long time
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who's been on this show, like Carl Franklin, Richard Campbell, and Mads Torgensen
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but I met a lot of new friends from all around the world
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But I'll be talking more about that the next show when I have those pictures ready for you
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but I did kind of want to share really quick some of my pictures from going
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around Copenhagen. The first day I was there, the first two days I was there
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I got to go around Copenhagen and the picture that just came up there on the
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left, that's actually the Tivelli gardens, which is the world's oldest amusement park
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So that was really fun to go to. I went there with some of my new friends that I've met from the conference and
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And the picture on the top right there is the little mermaid statue, which is, of course, very, very popular
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But, you know, Copenhagen. So I'm just going to talk a little bit about Copenhagen. And next show, I'll talk about the conference itself
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But, you know, I really enjoyed visiting Copenhagen. It's a very clean city, very safe feeling city
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You walk everywhere. You don't really, you know, get in a car to go anywhere
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Everything is pretty much in walking distance. I never got in a car until I left to go back to the airport
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The conference venue itself was two blocks away from the hotel. The train station to go back to the airport was like a block away
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The amusement park, it was a couple blocks away from my hotel
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Basically, you can pretty much walk everywhere. You know, it's a very old city because a lot of the streets are still cobblestone, which a little challenging for people like myself, who's not used to walking on that
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But that was really fun. They bike everywhere. They're very, very big into biking and very serious about it, too, if you get in their way
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And so I had a really good time there. The weather rained off and on, but it seems like typical for this time of year
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But it was very beautiful. It's definitely a city I'd like to go back to, except for the cost
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It's kind of expensive there, especially the sales tax. That was pretty much the only downside was the cost
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But everything else I really liked about Copenhagen. And so I hope I get to go back next year
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if NDC conferences does the developer conference there again So crossing my fingers And I want to give a shout out I do it again next time too is I want to thank the NDC conferences
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for doing such an awesome job, not only the conference, but taking care of us speakers
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and everything like that. They did an awesome job. And I'll have more to share next time
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because I had a really long talk with the CEO of NDC conferences
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which I'll be putting in my video. because I taped it. And so I watch out for that
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I'll be working on that in the next couple of weeks. Okay. Oh, I forgot
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I saw my very first windmill. There's me at the windmill. It doesn't work, but it's there
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So I got to see my very first windmill at one of the parks in Copenhagen
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So that was really fun. I've never seen a real one before. All right
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I want to promote my latest book, which is Rock Your Career, Surviving the Technical Interview
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If you're looking for a job like this guy, you need this book for sure, because it'll help you
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get prepared for the technical interview. Because if you don't get past that, you're not getting the
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job. Sorry. That's all there is to it. You can be the best person in the world, but if you can't
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get through the technical part, you're not getting a job. So hopefully you'll pick up the copy of the
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book because it will help you because it helps me every time I do an interview. And I use my own
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advice, surprisingly. And talking about this show, on October 7th, season four will start
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I'm excited that we're almost to season four, only one episode left after this one
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and season four will kick off with my very very good friend Mads Torgensen who I spent time with
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at the developers conference in Denmark last week him and I hang out a bunch and he did a session
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there which of course I attended which is awesome so he's going to be talking about some of those
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things, I think, in this episode. And I'm going to have him talk about something he wants and maybe the next version of
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.NET that I really want. And so I hope you'll hang out and join us for that, for the first episode for season
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four, October 7th, set your calendars. I already have the blog post about it now
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if you want to go to that. All right, I want to bring on Bob
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if I can get through the bio without coughing. Bob's a nationally known software developer
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systems architect, researcher, and technical writer, journalist. Bob has written a number of books
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on computer programming and dozens of articles about topics related to software development technologies
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and techniques, as well as culture of software development. He's also contributed to the server-side
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blockchain journal, devops.com, as well as a number of other websites. Welcome, Bob
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Hey. Welcome, Dave. Thanks for having me. Hey, how's it going? Still here
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All my parts work, you know. You made it through COVID okay
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Actually, I made it through COVID. I did get it. I got COVID coming back from a developer conference
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on a plane out of Dallas. and I caught, I did catch it
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I was fortunate and I didn't have it severe, but I had it. And I'm sort of
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I'm going to take my first plane trip since that time, which is almost a year
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over a year ago in October. And I'm going to go to the Midwest
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So it's going to be interesting. I'm going to bring her, you know, a hermetic suit or something
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You can still wear a mask. People will look at you funny, but you can still wear a mask
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Most people, you know, my flights weren't wearing a mask. I guess I, well, I think I caught it at the conference itself because a couple other speakers have come down with the same thing
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So, but luckily I don't have COVID. I touched it and I've never gotten COVID so far
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So I'm really happy. But, you know, when I was in Denmark, a few days before I left, my sister-in-law sent me a text that kind of flipped me out a little bit going
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Oh, I heard there's an uptick in COVID in Denmark. I'm going to hawk dang it
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Yeah. But luckily, but luckily I didn't catch it. Yeah. So far
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I was fortunate. I was fortunate. My case wasn't severe. Yeah. There's actually a couple of speakers had to bow out at the last minute for the conference because I caught COVID right before they left
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And then some of the speakers had issues getting to the conference because, you know, the Monday or Tuesday last week, the air traffic control wasn't working in the UK for a long time
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And so that screwed up everything. And then the trains went on strike or something
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I don't know what happened. They're having a lot of travel issues over there in the UK. okay so um so how how's your um are you working right now oh yeah I'm always working yeah um yeah
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I I have I have a full plate I've been very fortunate in that I always have a full plate
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and I pay particular attention to having a full plate yeah so uh yeah no I've been fortunate
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um yeah i do um i do i mean i do i do a couple things i mean i how can i my i i do a lot of
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technical ysis and research and as a result a lot of technical a lot of writing um i don't um
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i don't do i do somehow too there's no question about it but but i you know ysis and writing
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and I have specialties I pursue and I have interests I pursue
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And I've been very fortunate in being able to stay with it
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But anyway, are we going to talk about slinging code in your 60s? Yeah, that was my next question
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So what do you want to talk about with that? Because I do have some questions
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So before we get going, And everybody out there, I don't know how many people are watching, please type in your questions now so we can get Bob to answer them
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And like I said, I really want younger developers to watch this
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So if you're a younger developer watching, please ask Bob and I any questions about navigating the world when you've been doing this 20, 30 plus years
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Because a lot of us don't think that's going to happen. but here I am and here you are
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And so, yeah, so let's talk about it. What do you want to talk about
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No, if you have some questions, hit me with them. I do well with questions
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Okay, so I'll just go from the top down. So how long have you been a professional software engineer
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I been a professional I think myself as a software developer but I actually got into the game late I got into the game when I was 31 31 32
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And at the time, I had, my undergraduate degree was in music
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My graduate degree was in educational psychology. And I had two kids
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And at that time, they were probably four years apart. So I think my oldest was six and the youngest was two
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and I'm realizing that in the honest I said look I gotta I gotta figure out a way to make some money
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here yeah you know I gotta figure out a way to make some money and that Tina I was teaching wasn't
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really well suited to me I didn't I didn't have that resilience that I think in a high school
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teacher even a college teacher needs are just not letting stuff get to you you know why is this
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and I start and I really I had some experience undergraduate undergraduate in the 70s doing
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mainframe programming in PL1. So this notion of programming was an alien to me. And at that time
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you know, when I was just turning 30, so it was probably 89, 90, you know, the PC thingy was just
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emerging. But I decided I wanted, I started programming as a way, my first experience
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programming was an application, using an application was two things, spreadsheets, which I found intriguing and putting the formulas in the spreadsheets and then writing music
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being able to write string quartets using using a computer. I found that really just very
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liberating, but I didn't have any professional experience. So so the world will now know the
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first job I got that actually had anything to do with computers was I got I got a job with a
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computer rental company running around they would rent computers to companies and my job was to load
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the computers in the truck and um drive around and install them at clients that's what i did and
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as a result that i had to learn configuration i had to learn how to put a computer together
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i had to learn all that stuff and while i was at this company they um i i i took an interest again
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in rekindling and programming and i wrote um i wrote a leasing calculator for them in basic
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that's really sending me. And that's a while ago, right? And that was successful
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I said, gee, this is really what I like to do. And the other thing I got interested in
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this was pre-Windows. There was no Windows when I started out. I think when you started out, there were no Windows
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And there was- Well, there was Windows when I started out, yeah. Okay, yeah. No, there was no Windows
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I didn't have no, we didn't need no stinking Windows. So the notion of user experience
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was pretty much character-based screens or the command prompt. and um and so but there was just there was the emergence of graphical interfaces through
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drivers and i started uh playing around with this i mean i i had a computer and i always i did like
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them and i liked the the immediate interaction of trying to battle the computer and i wrote some um
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i wrote some on-screen interactive graphics all right and now i'm being really fast-forwarded
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here. And then I got picked up by a company that was doing some work for National Geographics
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that they wanted to do. National Geographics wanted to create like an encyclopedia thing
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And this was before, you know, the whole online, the encyclopedia stuff. So, and again, I could go
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painstakingly through. The thing that changed for me, the big dramatic thing is I was doing this in
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Boston and I was getting, and I was doing graphic programming. I was getting interest and I had a
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little, and I've always had companies. I've always done businesses. Even in college, I had a business
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And I always had businesses, so that wasn't alien to me. And then I answered an ad in the Boston Globe that they said, you know, computer company needs multimedia programmers
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Right. And so I said, OK, I guess I'm doing graphics, multimedia programming
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And why not? So I sent the resume to this computer company
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Hire me to do your multimedia programming. well it turns out the company was called gateway and they were in north sioux city south dakota i
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was in boston massachusetts and they flew me out and i there's a whole story in there just
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what that was like and i ended up moving there and i ended up working for the guy i have a thing
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pretty much my work history is four years and you graduate yeah yeah yeah four years and you
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graduate as long as i've ever stayed a job was four and a half so yeah yeah yeah you did post
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grad work. So that was transformational. That really was. Because they had so much trouble
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hiring people. It wasn't like going to work for DEC or going to work for IBM or going
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because who wants to go to North Sioux City, South Dakota? I mean, it wasn't a cultural center. I did
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I did. And I did. And when my family moved out there and it was transformational because I got
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to do a lot of stuff I normally wouldn't have been able to do just because of where I happened to be
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and I know that went on for four years and then I graduated and there's a lot of stuff after that
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so I guess the point is I'm being circuitous here saying yeah I came into the game late but I've
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been doing it for a while and I found um out and I spent a lot of time and I have I have done
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you know I did a lot of the stuff I made for gateway turned into the got into the hands of
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millions of people but where I left gateway the internet was becoming a thing yeah and
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And that was also transformational with the Internet becoming a thing. And that was around 1998, 1999
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So am I answering your question? Am I doing a good job? Am I holding readers' interests, viewers' interests
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Is Gateway still around? I don't know. I haven't heard anything about them
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Yeah, they were the third largest computer manufacturer. Yeah, they were. Yeah, they were big
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Yeah, I saw them get listed on this. And I was there two years when it was private, when the company wasn't public
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And I was two years when it went public. And I learned a lot. It's not something we can discuss this another time, what that transformation looks like
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But things happened. But no, they're not around anymore. I think they sold off the brand to Asus or something
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But yeah, for a while. They were the real deal. They were the real deal. So you've been doing this a long time
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So how long do you plan to stay in it? uh i retire like fully retire fully retire that's an interesting concept i don't plan to fully retire
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that's not something i plan to do um i still really like it here's here's here's the thing
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i really like it there's no question about it so what's it like let me talk about being sick
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this is the last year i'll be 60 i will be this is my last year i will be 70 in july of the
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upcoming year. I'm now officially really old as opposed to being sort of old. Now I'm going to be
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really old. So in my 60s. So there's a couple of things that have changed. First of all, when I was
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in my thirties and even in my forties, I had the physical stamina to really do, you know, those two
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or three days of straight coding, or that's all there was. And that was your complete world. And
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I was fortunate at the time because my, you know, my kids and, you know, my wife at the time, she
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was really they were good about it they sort of got it um and they and i and also when i was writing
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the books and if anybody written a book will tell you it it really an arduous undertaking really um it and i went through four of them and i remember my daughter once saying when when one of the book contracts
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came in she started to cry and i said another book you know and these were times when you
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actually made money from writing books you know right not anymore not anymore um and so i had
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that physical stamina. Now I don't. Now I don't. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah, I just don't have it
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And so as a result, I don't do production code. I don't look at, you know, when the recruiters
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call me, you know, full stack developer, I just, you know, put that away. Yeah, I'm a no stack
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developer. Yeah, no stack developer. One stack developer. I'm a non-stack developer. So what
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what what so that doesn't happen what i do now is i still enjoy learning technologies i'm very
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cautious i don't learn anything on whim because i i know how to learn technologies and i do
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and i look at and i like complex i like explaining them and one of the fortunate things and i'm sort
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of what was surprising to me is my undergraduate degrees in educational psychology and there's
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stuff that you actually learn in school when you get a master's about how how people learn
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and what cognitive development looks like. And I've been fortunate that I had that stuff
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and I had some professors who were really into it. And we can, and I've written some articles about
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that I can share online or later about how people learn and how to teach technology
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or how to communicate technology in a way that's, in a way that's suited to how human beings learn
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And there is a science people, human beings learn in a particular manner. So I've sort of carved out that area. So a lot of my work
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is research, understanding how technologies work, that I've been doing this a long time
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I can sort of figure out what's real, and what sort of noise. Yeah, it's just another thing
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You know, like, there's, there is an, you know, there is an eternal cycle that no matter what
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it's like, gee, I made some code, I made some code, I got to make sure it works, I got to get
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it out to the users and then I got to sort of revise the code based on user response that's you
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know that's the virtuous cycle and that cycle is eternal whether you're writing mainframe code
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or whether you're doing you know modern distributed systems and so we can sort of look at that and say
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yeah this is this this stuff here this technology has legs or this technology is sort of not really
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a thing and I've been able to and and I one of the things I do is I I try to keep my opinions
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down and I try to keep my assertions provable. I don't, you know, in a professional capacity, I don't make an assertion
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I can't prove. Right. I just, I don't do that. So I've been fortunate. So I still do that. I still like, you know, I'm doing right now
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I'm spending a lot of time in, I don't like the word cryptocurrency because I'm not a cryptocurrency speculator, but I've been spending a lot of time
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in blockchain technology. Someone invited me to say, take a look this and i have and i've taken the i'm taking a pretty deep look at it so i've been looking at
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programming languages solidity aslan is rust um you know that sort of stuff that ecosystem and
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understanding how that works and there's something going on in there and there's a lot of things not going on in there too it's a two-edged sword and i'm looking at some other stuff um and i you know
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help companies do that um so that's in my 60s um one of the things is i have no expectation
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of ever being hired for a full-time job. And that's sort of okay with me
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Yeah. Well, it's tough. It's like I said at the beginning of the show
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it's incredibly tough to do that at an older developer age, right
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Yes, it is. And for those younger developers who are watching and care about this stuff
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first of all, I have no idea. If you're 30 now and you're slinging code and it's working for you and you're liking it
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And there has to be that intrinsic engagement. You really sort of got to like it. You can't take it for a while
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Oh, you have to like what you're doing if you're going to do this for as long as you and I have, right
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Yeah, yeah. There's something there. So I have no idea what the world's going to look like in 30 years
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I'm seeing some trends. And so I don't know. You mean I can't predict the future
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But here's what I've been for. Again, I have to say I have been very, very fortunate
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Okay. okay most a lot of people i know my age happen all right and a lot of people in software but
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they're not really in software but one of the first lesson i learned and someone told it to me
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who was 30 years older to me older than me at the time and he said the trick here the trick
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is to live on as little money as you can and live well yeah live well and i really really
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that that's something that stuck with me for a long time so i don't um i'm i'm i'm not a miser
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but i'm very cautious of what what my expenses are yeah i mean i went through the period of you
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know i i think my my my the most luxurious car i ever owned was a saab convertible right that was
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like my period of luxury i had some money i bought the car and i drove it around and now and now and
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now i have a key of soul and i live in southern california so i don't have rot right i don't have
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a rot that you have if you live in the midwest that car it's going to be 10 years old it still
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works i put maybe if i put 6 000 miles a year on it so i figure that and yeah i'm doing well so
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i i i have i i live well the other thing i've learned and this is particularly um for going
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into later age that i've been fortunate is i saved money and i was in a position now granted
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my kids are grown now i have grandkids i don't have that enormous burden of expense that i did
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in my 30s 40s and even up to during my 50s so i don't have that but i was able to save money
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And the reason saving money is important is that there's there's not I've had the experience of, you know, we all we work for companies
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I'm under no illusion that companies are anything other than commercial organizations
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That's what they do. I mean, if I if I had if I and I've had businesses, if I if I had a business and I sold ice cream and I hire people, I want to help me sell ice cream
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our goal is to sell ice cream and if ice cream sales go off and nobody wants to buy ice cream
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anymore um yeah i'll be somewhat generous for a period of time but if the cash flow is not there
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we're not going to be you know sorry yeah sorry so um and it took me a while to understand to get
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to just accept that thinking just to accept it so you know there's really nothing more terrifying
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than really being you work for a major company and when you work for a major company ice cream
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sales aren't in your face every day. You know, if you were work for a company that has 19, you know
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gate, we had 19,000, I worked for Chad Capgemini 35,000, you know
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that you're so removed from what the day to day reality looks like
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It's like, man there. So again, so here's the, so there's nothing more terrifying than one day
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being called and getting a call from your manager, you know, on the food chain
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and saying, okay, meet me in this room at 12. clock and you walk into the room at 12 bring your computer and here's the guy from hr right
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or the person from hr and and you know it having done this more than once you know what the song
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is right oh yeah yeah you know you know bob thank you for your service yeah happened to me last year
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yeah exact same thing happened come to the conference room and bring your laptop right i
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I knew immediately what's happening. Right. And by the way, checking your code, right
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Checking your code, bring your laptop, and there's HR person. And at this point, I don't even, it's happened a lot
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It's happened a lot, I can say. And sometimes it's probably due to me being Bob, and sometimes it's due to circumstances out of my control
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Yeah. But it happens. And so there's really nothing terrifying if that's all you got
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if you get called in and you say by the way you have here's your severance pay and goodbye and
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you have there's nothing else and you have nothing else if you have no context if you have no
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community if you have nothing that's a pretty and you and you have kids that's a pretty terrifying
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situation to be in it is and it really you know can really mess with your your uh self-esteem
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dramatically you know uh or you know what some of us call you know our imposter syndrome you know
31:20
I'm, you know, for example, you know, the last guest on my show, we talked a whole hour about imposter syndrome because this time, you know, after losing my con my last contract, for some reason, imposter syndrome hit me really hard
31:33
And so I had him on the show so we could talk about it. But but yeah, it's it's every time you get, you know, laid off like that, it's it's a difficult situation
31:44
Right. Because you sit there going, oh, what did I do? you know how could i've done better you know all those kind of things and it's it's it's tough
31:52
right and so i just said so i've done i've done i put my business head on okay and here's my
31:59
business head my business head says okay i'm a i'm a company i'm a i'm a business and i have
32:04
customers right and a business with one customer ain't right you you don't ever want to have just
32:11
one customer right right and you want to have a lot of customers right right and so what i've done
32:17
and this it took a while to get here and again this is why savings are important because when i
32:21
started said okay you know you know i i'm in my 60s my getting i i don't want an executive job
32:29
if we imagine that the work our life is a movie you have to almost say where if i was looking at
32:35
bob i was taking a casting sheet i had my head shot and you know my my my movies on the back
32:40
What role could we put Bob in in the movie? Well, Bob could be the CEO or Bob could be an executive vice president or Bob could be this and this and that
32:51
And those roles I just don't want anymore because people can relate
32:56
I just don't want those roles. So what I said is, OK, so the trick is to have a lot of customers, just have a lot of customers and also to devote a portion of my day to sales
33:10
right i just a portion of my data sales you have to keep you putting yourself out there
33:14
and so as a result when you only have one customer hence a a full-time job and that customer goes
33:21
away you got a real problem yeah right but if you have a if you have six seven or ten customers
33:29
with varying degrees of revenue right varying degrees of revenue because the trick is cash
33:34
flow you always want some cash coming in right in some degree right so if you have and one customer
33:40
says you know thanks bob projects over or something that's great because that's okay thank you it's
33:45
great call me if you need something else or maybe you know you keep touch with them no animosity
33:49
but you have four or five other people that you're still working with right now the trick is what do
33:55
you need well you need to be very good at organizing your time you need to you know you need to pay
33:59
you need a payroll you need a payroll you need a billing system right you need um you know you need
34:04
you know, QuickBooks and all that good stuff. You need to take care of yourself and do your invoicing on time
34:08
And as a result, things have been okay for me. Things have been okay for me. People come, people go, and that's all right
34:17
But the trick is, okay, I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead. No, the trick is, again, I have to emphasize this, save money
34:23
You've got to have working capital. You've got to have working capital. Yeah
34:27
You have to have a half a year's worth of money. And you have to have more if you're going the consulting route
34:34
Right. It's I think. Yeah. And it depends what you want to do, too
34:38
And what your business, you know, what is your core competency and what do you want to do? Right. Right. And what you'd have to bring. And typically I try what I try to do is I always keep doing my stuff
34:48
So for right now, one of the things I've been interested, I'm very interested in how people learn how to teach technology
34:54
And I learn a lot of stuff through videos. I really rarely read documentation anymore
34:59
My process is I watch the videos and then I'll watch the videos and I'll download the code and I'll play with the code for a while
35:05
And then I'll read the documentation. So one of the things I'm very, this is a plug for one of the companies that I have a relationship with called Instruct
35:13
And one of the things I've been really interested is how do we take this, how do we take this technology called Instruct
35:20
which is really when Catacoda went away and Instruct came up and took that space
35:24
how do we use this in a way to make videos as a video production platform and then just to make
35:31
the videos instructable and so i'm going to be doing a pile just because i can and i happen to
35:36
like to do this i if you go out to i can provide i have an instruct site with a load of lessons but
35:42
everything from closure to event sourcing you know the whole nine yards and now turn that into videos
35:47
i happen to like to do that i like video production i like making movies right so that's
35:54
And I've been fortunate. I got these and people come along and say, oh, that was a pretty good movie
35:58
That was a pretty good lesson. You know, might you be willing to do this for us? Yeah, why not? Because I have the luxury of the working capital
36:07
So since you have a bunch of different customers and sounds like you work either full or part time, do you work like a 40 hour week or less
36:21
um i do i'm very well i do i work i hit my desk at 7 30 every morning um and i uh
36:32
i try to leave around 3 30 to go to the gym right like that exercise stuff and i don't i i try to do
36:41
i try to do six billable hours a day yeah yeah that's that's about what i sit for these days
36:47
Yeah, I do some fixed cost work, but it's rare. Yeah. It's rare
36:54
Well, this wasn't the question I was going to ask you, but Simon beat me to it
36:59
Leave it up, Simon. It's okay. We'll ask what my friend Mark asked
37:06
What are your thoughts on Blazer? I just turned 60 and not sure if it's worth the effort to learn
37:12
Oh, well, that's a good question, Mark. Thank you for asking. Nice guitar there
37:17
Let's go up the stack WebAssembly. Yeah. WebAssembly. I started I paid WebAssembly came out my radar about five years ago And if you do a search WebAssembly wrestling you see all my articles out there about it And I have I have I did work for this I do work for this company called Mimic
37:36
and they have a whole WebAssembly infrastructure that they use to deploy peer-to-peer microservices
37:43
which is interesting. WebAssembly is very much worth paying attention to. Yes
37:48
There is definitely something there. As a matter of fact, if we start looking at
37:53
And again, I don't know the internals, so I'm sort of suspect that if we start looking at like all the online stuff, I think even this, Steamyard, because I'm not on a client, I'm wondering if there's just some web assembly going on in here
38:09
Probably. Yeah. You can't get that power without it. So to answer your question, Mark, is for me, I wouldn't, I like Blazor
38:17
Blazor's cool. I mean, I can't say it's cool. It's really cool. you can push a button and run and run server side or client side
38:24
I get that. And again, I, I, maybe I should have worn my blazer. I do have one in the closet, but I would pay more
38:31
My recommendation is to pay more attention to web assembly. Right. And then if you, once you get the grok, you grok the web assembly stuff
38:39
then look at blazer. Blazers is something that interests you. The question is now you're back into you looking at, I don't
38:48
You're looking at blazer shops, right? My thing is I'm agnostic, right
38:53
So right now I do. I haven't done, to be honest, I haven't done .NET
38:58
Professionally, I haven't done .NET since I think 2015, right? I'm never inviting you on the show again then
39:06
Oh, man. It's not that I don't want to. It's just that I just- This is not a .NET show, so
39:11
Yeah, right. But no, but I mean, no, that's not true. I was actually starting to look at Orleans
39:16
I've been looking at Orleans because I'm doing a lot with workflow technologies and actor models
39:21
But so, but that's, I guess that's a good one. I'm looking at now the actor model and workflows
39:27
And it's just a boatload of languages out there that support that. Right
39:31
So the ability to stay somewhat agnostic, the things that have been meaningful to me that I wish I'm not unhappy I learned
39:38
I'm not unhappy I learned .NET. I get it. It really improved my object-oriented programming skills
39:42
I really get generic programming now because of .NET and all that good stuff
39:47
But where it becomes interesting is to look at the bigger global picture, right
39:54
So the actor model, right? Workflows, peer-to-peer networking, blockchain technology, and how is that implemented, right
40:04
How do you write logic in a blockchain, right? How do you do that
40:09
And then you'll see there's a whole pile of languages out there. And depending on what your interests are. If indeed your interests are mine, which is research and ysis, you need enough facility to be able to understand the language and to be able to read it at a good level, not just sort of rocking, but read it at a good level
40:31
And then I rely upon SMEs when it comes time to really do detail again, because there's only one of me and my head can only hold so much
40:39
I don't know if that answers your question. Was Mark that answered the blazer? Yeah. Was your question? I hope I answered it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it did
40:48
So. So I'll go to one of my questions and Mark has another one, but we'll do that in a second
40:54
uh uh so since you do you have a bunch of it seems like you have a bunch of contracts on your plate
41:02
um that keeps you busy and everything um you know the one thing that i'm having a really hard time
41:10
you know um the last almost 10 years of you know my career really is you know trying to convince
41:17
you know companies that they need somebody with experience and pay for it as opposed to
41:23
a couple people they could pay, junior people they could pay for me. And I know a lot of companies
41:30
out there for some reason value butts and seats over them, quality and experience and that's
41:37
just the way this thing works. But do you have any advice on how to navigate convincing companies
41:47
that you're worth the money that you're asking for at an older age
41:52
Yeah. Well, let me go back. And this is where I'm going to say some stuff that's a little dangerous
41:56
I wrote an article about this, too, about what happens when you're old
42:00
And I think we can put it in the links or something. Sure. But putting on your employer hat, like forget the employee hat, put on the employer hat
42:08
And now there's some statistical stuff that we just can't ignore. So, again, I'm 69 years old and I work
42:18
I mean, I'm sort of bummed out. David Bowie checked out at 65. Right. I've outlived a lot of people. And that's sort of interesting to me. And I'm really, really very grateful that I've done it. But here's the deal. If you're going to, after a while, you know, 10 years, even 15 years of programming experience is 15 years of programming experience. And that's, that's not inconsequential. Right. All right. So let's say that you, and after a while, they drop off. I had 15 years, I have 30 years
42:46
the delta is just not that yeah you know it's different maybe if you're a doctor doing research
42:56
right yeah that 30 years makes it different because you have that long historical but if
43:01
you're doing production work which is fundamentally making cars at some level right or doing that so
43:07
the point being is okay from an employer point of view i got that i got this guy 69 years old
43:11
his chances of developing a life-threatening illness within the next five years are this
43:17
statistical number. Right? I have this other person. I haven't thought about that
43:22
Yeah. Yeah. I have this other person who's 45 years old. His chances of developing a life-threatening illness in the next five years are dramatically
43:33
less than this other person. Yeah. Who are you going to hire
43:37
Sure. Right. and if you if yeah i guess if employers think of it like that you know i you know i would you know
43:46
say that you know especially you know when i not only did i do a survey about this but
43:51
you know when i talked to other developers you know most of us don't stay in a single job a long
43:57
time right that you know the average so my survey is two to five years and uh in my case like i said
44:03
before, you know, the max I've ever stayed at a company is four and a half years. So
44:08
I understand their point, but they'd also need to understand I'm probably not going to be there
44:14
long anyway. Well, let me say this. Here's a question I have and you just don't want to answer
44:19
it. Have you ever worked in a company where the person sitting three desks from you away from you
44:26
has died uh no i have yeah i don't remember that happening to me i've had it more than once
44:35
right people people die yeah i mean that's one in it oh by the way what's it like slinging code
44:43
in your 60s you know people die and you might be go to more funerals or you're just very aware
44:51
you very aware like the question i have you know this is tangential do i want to put here new technology do I want to devote five years of my life to it starting today Sure sure Right Because that what it takes to get good at something five years That my estimation
45:06
So I don't have a problem. I accept that. And as a result, going back to what I said earlier, I don't have expectation, nor do I want to be doing production code
45:18
I don't have the stamina. Yeah, yeah. And I don't have that, that level of dedication. And yeah
45:25
And I don't, and I don't fit in that. And you know, it's like anything else
45:29
you know, you have to, if you're a musician and let's say you're a 69 year old
45:33
musician, what, you know, if you had to make a movie about this 69 year old musician
45:38
would he be playing in a jazz band or a heavy metal band
45:42
Yeah. Not heavy metal. Right. He'd be like, you know, the age, he'd be aged, you know
45:48
experienced you know player playing you know with all the famous and there he is and he's either at
45:53
the end of his rope and he's living above a bar or he's an enormously successful recording artist
45:59
yeah but you say that's where it's at you know where do you fit in the movie and that's an
46:04
interesting question that I ask myself all the time well yeah look look at Motley Crue they don't
46:09
even play their instruments live anymore they're pre-recorded yeah that's how lazy and old they are
46:15
you know, and why people pay to go see them is beyond me. But that's, that's, I don't want to
46:20
get off on that tangent, because I'll never shut up about it. But, but yeah, you're right. And I
46:26
think, I think you're kind of proving the same thing, I think. And that is, you know, yeah, I
46:33
can't bang out code eight hours a day, like I did in my 20s, 30s, or even 40s, really, you know
46:40
and that's, and unfortunately, you know, what I see is, you know, companies either
46:48
not hiring us or not even looking at us because we can't do stuff like that, you know, but
46:55
what I think that companies, at least mostly companies I talk to, most companies fail to
47:03
realize is what we do bring to the project besides spitting out code eight hours a day, right
47:10
Because we have so much experience behind us. We have been through so many projects, good and bad
47:16
You know, we've seen things fail and succeed. And we're better at architecture
47:23
You know, we're better at other things. And I think a lot of companies fail at that, right
47:28
They're going, okay, let's hire older developers because of this, of what they do have, you know, and let's not make them bang out code eight hours a day
47:38
because they can't either they can't do it or they don't want to do it. Right
47:43
Yeah. And I'm more of I come from a different I'm not a different place, but my my attitude is more about a plumber
47:51
Right. I mean, I heard I mean, I said, you know, I mean, you know, I had a leak in my shop yesterday
47:58
Right. And I still do woodwork. I leak in a shop. And what I called the plumber, plumber come fix the leak
48:03
Plumber came fix the leak. He fixed it. Well, leaks gone. I gave him some money and he went home
48:08
And he was a cool guy. And I'm going to call him again when I got a leak. Yeah. Right
48:12
And so I don't I didn't call. I didn't ask him to come in and tell me about, you know, the stuff about my building
48:18
But, you know, we have a different person, you know, now when I need to. I happen to be in a condo
48:23
I'm on the HOA in my building. And so we do. We are very concerned about how buildings age
48:29
Right. But I don't tell him. It's my plumber for that. Then I call in an architect. Oh, we were concerned about how the building age
48:34
Let's, you know, talk to an architect that has experience with how buildings age
48:38
We're very clear that we don't want to marry the guy or the man or the woman, but we want the information
48:44
We're willing to pay for it. Thank you for the report and move on. Right. And there's a lot of aging buildings out there
48:52
We have a big problem with that now. Right. Yeah. A lot of aging buildings
48:55
So how that goes. So I don't any other thing for me is
49:01
OK, I care. I care a great deal about this thing. it changed my life it's a level of creativity and a type of creativity that's on you can't
49:12
find anywhere else writing a slick piece of code that actually does something cool and having to
49:18
interact with it and improve it it's just it's hard to replicate that creativity elsewhere
49:23
you know once you make a guitar that's it it's out the door it's all right yeah it's done and so
49:29
you know I really like that and I really care I try to care as much as I can about the people I
49:35
work with right because they're human beings yeah they're just trying to slog through the day like
49:40
the rest of us right they're human beings what i don't care that much about anymore is um
49:48
corporate outcomes yeah i'm with you too right and here's the here's the here's the litmus i use i
49:58
have litmus and i use the ogy of a dog if i care about your dog more than you care about
50:04
your dog. We got a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's what, yeah, that's one thing that
50:12
I think every once in a while to myself is, you know, I think I'd be much happier in this career
50:18
if I didn't have to work for companies, you know, because, because of the corporate crap
50:25
you know, that goes along with it, right. That like, like you, you know, we're both artists
50:30
you know we've both been doing this a long time we just want to create something cool and and and
50:37
and unleash it on the world right and that's what gives us satisfaction and and or solving a problem
50:43
something like that but then you know all the corporate red tape and processes and things like
50:49
that just totally get in our way of that yeah right i've come to accept i think about you know
50:56
the old saying, there's a right way, the wrong way in the army way. Right. And I just come to accept there's the army way. Corporations are
51:04
they're, they're, they're large, they're, they're organizations by nature. And one of the
51:12
one of the transformations that hasn't happened in, in, in corporate world prior, you know, the modern fact
51:22
what we come to understand is the modern factory started in 1850. right steam engines right and that was before that um and again i'm doing this from memory so
51:31
i have to do my doing this from memory yeah it's about that time yeah yeah about it but before that
51:36
organizations never grew beyond 500 people right they just you if you had a business and you had
51:42
500 people making you know you know limestone whatever they made that 500 was a litmus
51:48
so the the only organizational model that existed before 1850 for managing large numbers of people
51:56
were the military the roman army had been moving tens of thousands of people for centuries and
52:02
feeding them and waging warfare and supplying them and doing all that stuff so when it came time
52:07
to do say oh man we wake up one day now we got three thousand people in a you know making screws
52:13
right people forget how dramatic screws changed it's an industry right making screws how do we
52:20
organize them well you have to have a hierarchical organization and this is peter drucker talks a
52:24
lot about this in his book post society but now we come and at that point the worker didn really the manager didn knew exactly what the worker was doing The manager knew exactly
52:37
what the worker was doing. However, with the introduction of the information society
52:42
or knowledge-based work, right, if you're now a hospital and you're employing 400 doctors
52:49
of which each are segregated according to a specialty, divided according to specialty
52:55
the hospital administrator has no idea, has no idea what the brain surgeon does
53:00
He knows that the brain surgeon needs to do his work, but he has no, that's the intrinsic knowledge work
53:06
What we had hoped would happen, what we would hope would happen
53:10
is that the dynamics of knowledge work would create more autonomous democratic organizations
53:17
That was the hope. So we didn't have to deal with that. Oh, I got a, you know, I got a boss and a boss has a boss and I got to obey the boss. To a certain degree that has happened with regard to because now we have open source, we have GitHub, we have the free exchange of idea, we have all this wonderful communication technology. Right. But we don't the employer, the employer is still fundamentally hierarchical
53:45
and that creates and is the cindy lauper line money changes everything yeah it does power and
53:55
power has a power has a way of its own yeah so i wanted we only have a couple minutes left so i
54:02
want to make sure i get to my uh friend's last question because otherwise they'll get mad at me
54:07
you know uh uh so mark asked uh since you don't want full-time work how do you find part-time work
54:14
It's a good question. I've been very, baseball has been very, very good to me
54:21
The way I, it's, how can I say this? You keep, you keep publishing, you keep putting yourself
54:33
the way I've been successful is I always keep putting myself, my stuff out there and I always keep doing stuff
54:39
You always keep publishing. It's like, it's like a bakery. You always you bake, you have you never miss a bake. You bake every day. You bake every day
54:47
And the bread rots, the bread rots. Right. But you bake every day. And I keep doing that
54:51
I keep putting stuff out there. I've cut back on my social media presence because I found it doesn't really matter
54:59
No, not much, not much, but I keep putting stuff out there and I take a genuine interest
55:04
I mean, I'm always the way I learn, like right now, because of my blockchain research, I've had to spend a lot of time on discord and interacting with those people
55:14
The other thing I do, this is I promote this is whenever anybody helps me on a discord or any of that stuff, whenever I get value from their stuff, I compensate them
55:26
Even if it's a $25 gift card, because, you know, you know, played forward, nobody works for free
55:31
So, again, you just keep putting stuff out there. Make sure, you know, keep publishing, keep, you know, as long as you're doing, if you're a band that's doing three gigs a week, guess what? You're probably going to be able to get four gigs a week. If you don't have any gigs a week, you know, at some point you play for free. You can play for free because you have working capital. And you can be choosy about the gigs you're going to play. I can't stress that enough. You need the working capital
55:57
Yeah, that's a really good point that we could spend a whole hour, another hour talking about
56:04
And that is putting yourself out there, right? And I do a lot of writing and videos and speaking and things like that
56:14
And believe me, a lot of that is the reason I do that is because I love helping people, right
56:20
But the other reason is to keep myself in the market, you know, being noticed, right
56:28
Because when I do need a new contract or a new position or something like that, then I want to make sure, oh, yeah, yeah, I heard about that guy
56:35
Or, yeah, I read a blog post that he did I really liked or something like that, right
56:41
And that gives you a lot of credibility, right? If you do put yourself out there, you know, either by, you know, like I said, speaking, writing, books, videos, whatever, right
56:52
You got to keep yourself in the market, right? Yeah. Yeah, you got to stay active
56:58
Yeah. Okay. So that was too short. I want to keep talking
57:05
Yeah, we'll do it again. And the last thing I need to mention too, I forgot to mention this on my list of stuff
57:10
is for anybody who's in their 60s, do not go too far from the code
57:14
Coding is like playing the piano. You've got to play every day. If you don't play the piano every day
57:19
and you profess to be a pianist, you're not going to be, you're not, your piano playing is going to suck
57:24
If you don't code every day, your coding is going to suck. Yeah, that actually, you know
57:30
because of my trip to Denmark, I didn't play. So every weekend I practice at least five hours
57:36
every weekend, every weekend without fail, unless I'm sick, like this weekend
57:41
But so the two weekends before, the last two weekends, I couldn't play because I was going
57:48
or coming back from Copenhagen. And so Labor Day, before I caught this flu, I played and I was going, gosh, dang it
57:58
I only was gone two weeks. I'm already forgetting some of the chords
58:02
What is wrong with me? You know, I've been playing these songs for decades and two weeks and I start forgetting a few things
58:10
Come on. I must really be getting old now. OK, so let me ask you the last question, because I got to go because Simon's got to go to bed or go party or whatever
58:22
Young people do late at night in India. So I asked you one question the first time you were on the show
58:29
And by the way, Bob was my ninth guest and now he's the 87th
58:36
So almost 80 shows later, you're back on the show, which I think I didn't really notice until Simon told me that
58:44
So what brings you happiness in your tech career? Oh, it varies
58:53
It varies. I mean, you know, making good stuff is always satisfying. Making good stuff is always satisfying
58:58
and you know so there's some people my question well your stuff is not that good fine tell me
59:02
okay you got me yeah um and i do uh i do i i've gone out of the i've gone out of the mr know-it-all
59:11
business you know i had a clearance sale sold everything um but i do i do enjoy um help helping
59:19
helping i do enjoy helping others i i enjoy passing i'm passing this thing on because it
59:25
passed on to me. I had to work really good. I had two kids and I just had to start out by
59:33
delivering computers. I get it. But this is what I wanted to do. This was it
59:37
And so if I can make somebody's life a little easier or make a computer's life a little
59:41
easier, I get satisfaction from that. And helping people to think on their own
59:50
And making good stuff that counts. It's just something sort of brings me a modicum of joy
1:00:00
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, you and I feel the same way
1:00:04
Not, you know, listening to your story, because I didn't know until today, like the beginning of how you became a developer and everything and other things you've said today
1:00:14
We are very similar. I know my hair might be longer than yours, but very similar with it
1:00:22
Not only how we started, but the creative thing and we like helping people
1:00:26
And we get joy out of building something cool and interesting and unique that no one else has done
1:00:32
Right. Yeah. That's that's why I'm here. Yeah. All right. All right. But I better let you go. Thanks so much
1:00:40
You can hang out after after the show's over if you want to chat. Otherwise, I'll let you get to your your weekend
1:00:47
But we can we can talk. I'll stick around. We can. Okay, but it's definitely not going to be 80 shows before I ask you back on again
1:00:56
Yeah, yeah. I shouldn't wait that long, especially for us older folks
1:01:02
Yeah, right. Sorry. That thing on Facebook, Bob's not there anymore. Bob's not here
1:01:08
Dave's not here. All right, thanks a lot, Bob. I'll talk to you in a few minutes
1:01:14
Okay. Thanks. well that was a really cool um uh interview as long as usual it's too short i really wanted to
1:01:23
keep talking because i didn't even ask bob all the questions i had so i had one more left at
1:01:30
least on my list i wanted to ask him so maybe we'll say that for next time so hopefully we'll
1:01:35
get them on uh not 80 shows from now but uh sooner maybe next year uh we'll see uh so that was fun
1:01:44
I want to promote, you know, when I was in Denmark last week, I did my session on code performance
1:01:53
And it was the first time I showed the differences between .NET 6 and .NET 8 in public
1:01:58
And there are some really big differences that you all need to know about that's coming in, excuse me, in .NET 8
1:02:06
There's a lot of great, .NET 8 overall has really, really changed in performance
1:02:12
Some things have actually gone negative kind of backwards a little bit with performance but I not too worried about that until the final version comes out But there a lot of changes So if you want to keep up to date with the changes coming at 8
1:02:29
and before I release the next version of my Code Performance book
1:02:34
you can go to that link there and subscribe and get these changes as I start publishing them pretty soon
1:02:41
So I hope you go there. It's only like $4.99 a month
1:02:46
and you can read all of these articles. about performance that I have behind the subscription model
1:02:52
So I'll help you do that. Because speaking of retirement, I need to save up for my retirement
1:02:59
So I hope you'll do that. Here's my geek humor for today
1:03:03
I saw this, I think, coming back from Denmark. I thought it was funny. My dream of becoming a programmer
1:03:08
and then a truck basically crashes into the bus. Technical interviews. Yeah, that's definitely I don't know about you all out there, especially if you've been doing this for a while
1:03:24
But technical interviews are just getting harder and harder not to do, but just just not good anymore
1:03:33
And I hope we can change that because it's really disheartening. But anyway, hopefully you're not experiencing that
1:03:41
as always I hope you will help me help the kids from the slums in Delhi
1:03:46
India these are pictures from my visit to the Voice of Slum last October
1:03:52
when I was there delivering five computers and visiting the kids and the kids
1:03:58
sang songs and read poetry to us really great kids and they also have a new
1:04:06
initiative they're trying to get funding for right now So I hope you'll go to the voice of slum.org or go to my GoFundMe site and I'll donate the money myself
1:04:18
But the best thing to do is just go to voice of slum.org
1:04:22
There's lots of ways you can help them by not only donating money, but buying school supplies and and things like that for the children
1:04:29
And they really need your support because, believe me, you know, after walking through the slums twice now in Delhi, India
1:04:37
And they have it really rough there. And us as software engineers we have the ability to help them And so just go to voiceofslum and please please help the kids in Delhi India
1:04:55
Also, unfortunately, I'm still having to talk about the Ukraine. They're still not going great there
1:05:04
And I heard a lot of not great things when I was in Denmark because I got to see the BBC News
1:05:12
which actually reports more news than American news channels do. And so please, you know, send your thoughts and prayers if you can to them
1:05:24
And let's get this over with because I want to go back and speak there because I really loved the Ukraine when I was there
1:05:32
So, all right. With that, the next show will be in a couple of weeks
1:05:38
because of scheduling things with Dylan. Dylan's a very popular speaker at the NDC conferences
1:05:47
He did a session in Denmark about this app that he wrote
1:05:52
that allows you to do guitar-a-oke, which combines karaoke and guitar chords
1:06:02
It's really cool. And if you get to go watch that session, go watch it
1:06:08
It's pretty interesting how he came up with this and the story behind it
1:06:13
But anyway, he's going to be on the show. And I already told him we might geek out and talk about guitars the whole time, but I'll try to keep it to the subject
1:06:23
And he also has a band that plays at these NBC conferences
1:06:28
They played at the big festival night last week. They're called the Line Breakers
1:06:33
And what they do is they take popular songs from like the 80s and 90s and convert their lyrics to software engineering terms and things like that
1:06:46
Like, for example, they take the ACDC song Highway to Hell and change it to HTML
1:06:54
It's really, really fun and hilarious. And so make sure you watch that show because we're going to have a good time one way or the other
1:07:03
So always as always I losing my voice Luckily the show almost over As always please donate blood to your local blood bank now They all in shortages right now
1:07:18
That's a picture of me donating when I hit 17 gallons the last time I donated
1:07:24
I was supposed to donate tomorrow, but because of my cold, I can't, so I'm going to try again next
1:07:30
Sunday. But you can go donate right now, and it'll help your fellow human and help you
1:07:36
someday in the future, too. And with that, thanks so much for being on the show
1:07:43
I apologize for my voice. If you have any questions or comments
1:07:48
please email me at rockinacodeworld at csharpcorner.com. And with that, I'll see you on September 30th
1:08:08
Thank you
1:08:38
Thank you
1:09:08
We'll be right back
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