Up next in 10
Change in IT Sectordue to COVID - Growth Mindset Ep. 13
19K views
Nov 9, 2023
Join Mahesh Chand and our guest speakers Joseph Guadagno & Ted Neward, today at 10:00 AM(EDT) for the next episode of Growth Mindset Weekly Live Show focuses on Tech Hiring, Career Advice, and Culture. GUEST SPEAKER Ted Neward is an industry professional of twenty years' experience. He speaks at conferences all over the world and writes regularly for a variety of publications across the Java, .NET, and other ecosystems. He currently resides in the Pacific Northwest with his wife, two sons, three cats, twelve laptops, seven tablets, nine phones, and a rather large utility bill. Joe Guadagno is a Director of Engineering at Quicken Loans, the nation's largest mortgage lender based in Detroit, Michigan. He has been writing software for over 20 years and has been an active member of the .NET community, serving as a Microsoft MVP in .NET for over 10 years. At Quicken Loans, he leads three software development teams building and modernizing our internal services. He has spoken through the United States and international events on topics ranging from Microsoft .NET, Microsoft Azure, Ionic, Bootstrap, and many others. C# Corner - Community of Software and Data Developers https://www.c-sharpcorner.com/
View Video Transcript
0:00
Thank you
0:30
20 years ago, a seed was planted and cared for. We painstakingly nurtured it and weathered it against adversity
0:38
until one day it blossomed and the fruits of our labor began to show
0:42
Today, millions have learned, shared, and been inspired by what our community has produced
0:47
We proudly serve 21 million users from 204 countries in 2019. Through our 85,000 technical articles, code samples, and videos
0:56
our 450,000 forum questions, and our highly anticipated conferences and events, featuring
1:01
keynotes, panels, and live streams with industry experts and influencers. We recognize and reward
1:07
members for their dedication to the community. Through content contributions and mentorship
1:12
we ranked number 2,620 in the world, with the reach of millions across our social media channels
1:18
Thanks to you, our global community of software and data developers grows stronger each day
1:23
For more information, visit us at csharpcorner.com. Good morning and welcome to another episode of Growth Mindset Show
1:36
This show is every Friday, 10 a.m. Eastern. My name is Mahesh Chan, founder of C Sharp Corner
1:44
We bring this show to talk about growth, mostly around software developers
1:50
if you are joining us first time welcome to the show if you are a regular audience of our show
2:00
welcome back to the show as we you know some of you already know excuse me this um this show is
2:08
all about you so we want to make sure you you know feel free to post any kind of questions you have
2:14
in comments this comment section thank you for watching it watching us you know looks like people
2:20
are joining us from different parts of the world. I see people joining from India, joining from US
2:27
Europe, even Canada. Welcome to the show. Feel free to post your questions and comments
2:36
The purpose of this show is make sure we answer your questions. In each show, I have guests on
2:42
the show and we talk about different topics. If you are first time joining
2:49
Growth Mindset show, our goal with the show is to help software developers
2:57
understand other parts of the businesses and grow to the next level
3:05
And today we have two special guests and our focus today is on jobs, hiring, recruiting
3:18
and how COVID has changed in the entire IT sector, how people are now working remotely
3:29
How jobs are going to be in future and how we are going to work from home
3:37
So it's going to be very different compared to the last several years and how industry
3:47
has changed from working from, you know, working at office to working from home now
3:55
If you are new to C Sharp Corner, C Sharp Corner is an online community of several million developers
4:04
If you are not a member, please go check it out. C-SharpCorner.com, join us, become a member
4:09
There's a lot of benefits of being a member and mostly around exposure
4:15
If you are a part of C Sharp Corner MEP program, we bring you on live shows and we promote
4:22
you on social media. check us out on you know Twitter, YouTube, Facebook and all kind of social media platform
4:33
So today let's bring our guests and today our guests are Joe and Ted. They work for
4:41
a large corporation and both are technical background. So let's start introducing our
4:48
guests. Good morning, Joe. Good morning, Ted. How are you? Great. You weren't kidding, Ted. It is
4:57
dark in your office. That's what happens when you live in Seattle and you do a 7 a.m. webcast
5:04
So I blame you, Joe Godagno. Yes. So guys, welcome to the show. Ted, welcome to the show. Joe is our
5:15
frequent guest on the show. You are here first time. Welcome to the show. So the growth mindset
5:20
is I am really, you know, glad you are here with us today. I know it's early in Seattle
5:27
and I can imagine kids may still be sleeping if you have kids. Well, I haven't gone to sleep yet, so we're all good
5:33
Okay, there you go. So yeah, just tell us a little bit about where you got joining us from
5:39
and how it's COVID situation there. You're first, Ted. Okay. Hi, my name's Ted Neward
5:49
I live in Seattle, Washington. Actually, I live in Redmond, Washington, about 10 minutes from the Microsoft campus, from the heart of the beast
6:00
And as the shirt implies, both Joe and I work for Click and Loans within the technology group, which is known as Rocket Technology
6:08
and here in Seattle we're still we went back to a I won't say a complete lockdown restaurants can
6:18
still operate and stuff to do takeaway but there is no indoor seating there is outdoor seating
6:25
as long as any sort of tent enclosure isn't completely enclosed there has to be one at
6:30
least one open wall if I understand it correctly and we're in that until what did I just see
6:38
I think early January is what the governor's latest orders have stipulated
6:44
So, you know, we're definitely not clear of it. We've seen the state of Washington has seen a lot of spike in cases, particularly outside the city of Seattle
6:56
But for the most part, when you go, you know, go out and wander the streets and whatnot, you see people wearing masks
7:02
I mean, it's, you know, most people here understand the point of a mask and are generally pretty cool with it
7:12
So that's our current state of being. And then you have the exact opposite of that
7:19
I wasn't going to be the one to say that some of us live in red states and some of us live in blue states
7:24
Well luckily we turning more one color than the other lately but we still have some things to get rid of So my name is Joe Budagno Most people call me Joe G amongst other things
7:37
that I won't share on a live show, but I know some of those other nicknames as well as my head
7:44
I am from Phoenix, Arizona in the U.S., a little bit further south, but we're still
7:49
two hours different. We're at eight o'clock right now. Our situation is a little bit different. So
7:56
we have a governor in our state that believes that the economy and dollars are more important. So
8:07
everything is pretty much open. He's left it up to the local counties. So for those not familiar
8:15
with the U.S. government. We have the country itself. Then we have states. And within the
8:20
states, there's usually cities and counties. So our governor, who's usually in charge of the
8:27
whole state, left it up to the locals to figure out what they want. Because as he puts it
8:32
the situation is different in every city and let each city say what they need
8:38
Pretty much every county is mandated masks. But like Ted was alluding to, we are
8:44
red state right now for the most part. And a lot of people don't believe in it. So when you go out
8:52
you see half a mix of people wearing masks and half don't. So as I like to put it, all the smart
8:57
people are staying at home and ordering DoorDash and cleaning everything while all the not so smart
9:03
people are outside doing it. We've been home for, I think, since it started in mid-March
9:11
almost like a week after you know it was really hit big and our our leaders at our organization
9:21
said we are not going back except for some super super critical things like when we have to handle
9:27
paper and stuff until at least spring so yeah our organization is keeping its team members in mind
9:36
So you work for Quicken Loans and now I think they have the Rocket Technology Department of Quicken Loans
9:43
And I know you guys went IPO recently. And it's a pretty large corporation
9:51
About 25,000 people. 35,000 people. That's pretty big. And the one thing I want to really, you know, cover in this show is that, you know, pre-pandemic and now, what has changed from work-wise for mostly, you know, software developers and IT people
10:11
And how difficult or easy have you guys transitioned from, you know, working at work to working from home
10:21
and what are the challenges and now, what do you see going forward like post-pandemic
10:28
So I will say this. I joined QL a little bit over a year ago
10:34
And so I definitely have a lot more recent experience with companies that are not Quicken Loans
10:42
And to be really honest, I was really impressed with how they managed that transition
10:49
um you know living in seattle i was flying out to detroit which is where the corporate
10:55
headquarters is i was flying out there 50 of the time and around the end of february as i came back
11:03
from a conference i was talking with my leader uh who is the cio and i said hey you know the
11:10
pandemic thing seems to be growing you know what do you think should i come out and his comment was
11:16
yeah, let's, let's, you know, let's hold off. Let's just wait. Right. We don't, you know
11:20
as much as we enjoy having out here, you don't need to be out here. And over the span of that
11:26
following week, we went from, Hey, the pandemic is coming. We're keeping an eye on it to like
11:33
you know, Friday morning, our CEO, Jay Farner said, Hey, as you leave the office, take stuff
11:40
with you that you might need if you were to work at home, if you were to work at home
11:45
And by that evening, he said, don't come back to the office
11:50
And during that span of time, laptops, monitors, keyboards, and mice got shipped to everybody
11:58
not just the people in IT, but, you know, a significant percentage of the people that
12:02
work for Click and Loans are bankers who in many cases had never actually taken a laptop home
12:08
They'd always just sat there on their desk. And so we went from everybody in the office to everybody not in the office over a span of about a week, maybe two weeks was when they started, you know, getting all the orders ready
12:22
So literally thousands of laptops, thousands of, you know, other associated accessories and equipment shipped out, received, set up a whole nine yards so that come Monday morning, we didn't miss a beat
12:36
And that includes, what's that? Sorry, I was going to say that includes telephones, the full work for like 22,000, 23,000 people all in a week
12:46
Yeah, it was huge. That's impressive. That's impressive. Wow. It was. It was absolutely impressive
12:54
And then we started getting into like, okay, now how are we going to work
12:59
and A, for all that people like to bad mouth Microsoft Teams
13:04
it has really held up very, very well for a lot of us
13:08
It has its outages. It has its quirks. There are occasions when I sit down at my desk in the morning
13:15
and Teams is like, ah, we're wedged. You're going to have to re-sign in, quit it and restart
13:21
But then it's basically good for the rest of the day. And we're doing all of this over VPN too
13:27
So that, I think, adds to some of the complexities. But part of what we had to do is we had to adjust a little bit to how we work
13:36
Because QO was very much an in-person kind of culture, right? A lot of times it was, I'm just going to wander by so-and-so's desk
13:43
You know, if I've got a question for Joe, I'll just wander by his desk, right? And say, hey, Joe, you got a moment, let's chat
13:49
And we just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we go back our separate ways. Now, all of a sudden, you can kind of do that with teams, but everybody got to a point where it was like, OK, we got to schedule all the meetings all the time
14:01
Right. And suddenly, particularly if you are a senior leader like Joe or myself, your calendar just starts looking like this giant wall of orange
14:10
Right. Or whatever color you've chosen for your appointments. and that has definitely caused some of our team members a certain amount of angst because they
14:19
were accustomed to really getting in, especially if you're a developer, get in, put the headphones
14:23
on, code, code, code, code, code. I've got like one meeting, but periodically people would come by
14:27
and ask me questions. We'd banter for a little bit. Now it all has to be done over teams. And I think
14:32
we're still kind of figuring out some of this protocol as to how we want to work collectively
14:38
as an organization going forward. The key thing is we are going to figure out how to work
14:43
collectively as an organization, because at least within the technology space, we've made it clear
14:48
we not going back to the way things were Those of us who are remote and not in Detroit now all of a sudden are in very much more of an even playing field with the people who are in Detroit and I mean you know I I told my boss I told my leader right the CIO dude if I you know
15:08
if we go back to the old sort of AV setup where I have to dial into a conference bridge and I have
15:15
to be put on a speakerphone in the center of a room and I can't hear anything because somebody
15:20
next to the speakerphone is like getting in a side conversation with the person next to them
15:25
and they're laughing and dancing. Oh my God, yes. People playing with paper and fidget spinners
15:30
I'm going to fly out to Detroit and kill them all. Seriously. I'm not going back to that
15:35
And what's, you know, we're actually going through a process right now of rearranging
15:39
the physical space so that in fact, even if everybody wanted to be in the office, we can't
15:45
We're literally laying out the desks to create space, the necessary six-foot social distancing
15:53
And that means that only about 50% of anybody in rocket technology will be physically able to be in the building at any moment in time
16:01
So this, this webcam and microphone and sitting in front of your laptop, this is going to be the, I think this is going to be the new normal for us going forward
16:14
Now, if I'm in the office, yeah, I'll get up, grab some lunch, that sort of thing
16:20
But we are actively trying to move ourselves into a mindset of remote first, because the other thing that enables is not everybody has to be in Detroit
16:30
And if not everybody has to be in Detroit, then we can hire anybody anywhere
16:35
Modulo time zones, he says, as he sits here in darkness. And I think that's been one of the biggest things is, you know, you're a big proponent and, you know, clearly evidence of that is we had prior to this, we were very Detroit first company
16:57
You know, let's try to get everyone in there. Remote development or remote team members were seen as, oh, it's just them over there
17:05
there. We forgot to call to go or we forgot to bring Ted in. Now it's opened up where everyone
17:14
kind of feels that pain. We're no longer the proverbial redheaded stepchild, but more so
17:20
it has allowed us to be able to bring on people from all over the US. We're able to hire people
17:30
that just can't move like Ted. Ted's got his roots in Seattle
17:35
There's no way we're going to say Ted. The only way we're going to hire you is for you to move to Detroit
17:41
Same thing for me. So this has allowed us. Ted's team is a great example
17:46
Most of his team would be considered remote now because they're scattered throughout
17:51
We have people in Minneapolis. We have people in Cincinnati. We have people in Portland, Cleveland, Columbus, Nashville, which is soon to be Atlanta
18:06
Two people, two of the what are we up to? Ten, eleven some odd people on my team are actually in Detroit
18:16
Right. And so, you know, we're not scheduling off sites. We're actually scheduling on sites
18:23
depending upon where we are with travel coming up. If the travel opens up soon enough
18:31
we're going to do an onsite probably down in Phoenix because nobody in Detroit
18:37
as opposed to the idea of doing a trip down to Phoenix in February, you know
18:43
I mean, that's that, that, that ability to open up the entire continent coast to coast for us
18:50
We still can't hire internationally because of some really, you know, arcane rules around mortgage and finances and so forth
18:59
But, you know, assuming we could figure out how to navigate some of those, there's no reason why we couldn't set up, you know, engineering centers and hire people all over the world
19:08
because once you go to this remote first mentality, once you've got the infrastructure in place and the protocol, the expectations in place
19:16
it just opens up so much and opens up so many. And yeah, I mean, you know, Joe actually recruited me into QL
19:26
And, you know, the very first words out of my mouth, both to him and to Brian, you know, my leader
19:33
and to Sadie, the woman who was my recruiter during the process. first words to all of them were, I'm not leaving Seattle. That's, you know, if we want to have a
19:42
conversation with that understood, I'm not leaving Seattle. And I mean, you know, obviously we made
19:50
that work out. And in some respects, the pandemic has been good for us as a company
19:55
to demonstrate to a lot of our senior leadership who are really thinking that remote work
20:01
was really a perk to be given to only the most super productive
20:06
And this has really demonstrated to them that they don't need to have butts in seats
20:10
to be able to, you know, have team members that are productive. That's part of what company culture buys you
20:16
If you are really, you know, you buy into, if you invest in your employees
20:21
they will invest back in you when times like this come across
20:25
and fade off in spades. You know, we're doing some of the best business we've ever done
20:31
Yeah. And Brian just posted a comment on it. Brian, we all know Brian, you know, worked for infrastructure for several years. He said he's been working for 10 years remotely. We all been working mostly remotely, right? Especially the, you know, guys who are senior. But when it comes to the young guys, right? The guys who are just starting, right? The guys who are coming out of the college
20:53
I'm going to stop you there, Mahesh. Not just the guys. When I say guys, it means everybody
21:01
Well, then take out. Male or female. Young gals. Young gals out there
21:07
I mean, guys, I mean, everybody, right? That doesn't really, yeah. It's like recent graduates, they are coming out of college or, you know, they just graduated
21:18
They just have, you know, one year, two year experience. and they're not used to working from home
21:25
What advice do you give them? So what should they be doing or preparing themselves for even interviewing
21:32
and then once hired, they work from home? So to me, I get a lot of people that are like that
21:42
And prior to working at Quicken Loans, I never worked remote. I was always, as Ted put it, buttoned seats
21:49
I was always, you know, walking, going to my cubicle, you know, punching a clock, blah, blah, blah
21:55
When I started working at QL, it was a real struggle because I was used to going in, used to going into an office
22:02
You know, I had to get up at whatever, seven o'clock, shower, get in the car, go, you know, go and then, you know, reverse the process
22:11
And it was different because mentally you're physically there. You're away from your house
22:17
nowadays with a lot of people, especially if you're not ready for it
22:21
So like as you can see Ted has a dedicated spot in his office I have a dedicated spot in my house A lot of people don have that which is what the real struggle is Not so much the discipline of working but more so the
22:39
discipline of knowing when you're working and when you're not. It's very easy for most people to
22:47
I don't have a commute. My day starts at nine o'clock, but I can get in there at 9.30
22:51
or you're sitting on your dining room table or kitchen table because you don't have a dedicated
22:58
office space and you're trying to type away, but your wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend
23:04
significant other comes by and starts chatting with you. The key really to my success was to
23:11
get both myself mentally prepared for it and the family mentally prepared for it
23:17
When I walk into this office in my room, starting at, you know, nine o'clock, I am away
23:26
I am not physically here. You may see my body, but unless something's on fire in the house, I'm not here
23:33
So you got to get your surroundings around with ingrat that, you know, they come in every once
23:38
in a while. If my door is open, they know that I'm not in a meeting and I could be, you know, quote unquote
23:43
bothered. But it's getting into that mindset that you may be physically present, but you're not
23:51
really there and getting into the habit of treating it as if you were going on commute
23:55
I still get up at the same time every day. I don't shower in the first thing. I showered normally at
24:01
lunch because too damn early in the morning when I start my day. Because I start my day at, you know
24:07
5.30 my time, and I'm not about to start the shower that early. So I get in the office
24:13
and I start my day, and my family sees me when I come back out at 3 o'clock
24:20
The other thing to keep in mind is what a lot of people did, especially when we first got started
24:26
was they would stay at their desk all day long. They would come down, they'd wake up at
24:33
in my case, 5.30 is sitting there and it's now 6.30, 7 o'clock at night, I'm still catching up on
24:41
emails or working on that code. You have to treat it the same way you would treat the office
24:46
You know, oh, I got to get on the road by five o'clock or I'm going to hit traffic on the 5.20
24:51
or I'm going to miss my train if I, you know, don't leave the office by 5.30 or always, you're
24:57
just going to get burnt down. You're going to hate it. And that's not the purpose of, you know
25:01
You should enjoy what you're doing, whether it be an engineer or a leader or just, you know, an order taker
25:10
So you've got to keep the mindset that your office or at least your physical desk space is just the, quote unquote, cubicle that you're used to
25:18
Come in, do your work and then leave it. Yeah. Part of the thing, too, to realize is, you know, Brian's comment, I've been working from home for nearly 10 years
25:29
you know, I love Brian. He and I, you know, I've had beers routinely at conferences and whatnot
25:35
But the fact of the matter is working from home is very different from working from home during a
25:43
pandemic. I mean, the surrounding context, it's not just about working from home. It's about
25:50
working only from home. A lot of people, you know, to me, this is why, you know, I'm coining the
25:58
phrase remote first, as opposed to working from home, because really, whether, you know, pandemic
26:04
notwithstanding, there's no reason why somebody couldn't work from a Starbucks if they really
26:09
chose to. Or, you know, in my case, frequently, I would go to, I'm not a big coffee fan, I prefer
26:14
Diet Coke. So I would go to places like, you know, a Wendy's or like a Denny's or something
26:21
you know, where they have, you know, Diet Coke refills. And so I'll just sit there and drink my
26:25
I cook all day long, order food and so forth to make sure the servers get tipped or whatnot
26:31
But yeah, Brian, I miss Shane. Don't we all? Yeah, we both do
26:38
But the point is, you know, the pandemic adds additional load, right
26:43
Now, you know, sitting at your desk, sitting there for 12 hours straight, bad for you, right
26:50
You need to be able to get up, move around. And most of us, you know, even though we had standing desks at the office, we didn't install standing desks at home, even if we had that dedicated space
26:59
And so I often make a point of, you know, during meetings or whatnot, I'll get up and wander and pace my office a little bit, which for other people watching can actually be somewhat distracting
27:09
Right. But otherwise, I'm not. I mean, otherwise, I'm just sitting in this chair all day and that's not good for you
27:14
And the fact is the work-life balance, and actually I don't prefer to call it work life, I prefer to call it work home because you're living in both cases
27:26
Your work-home balance is completely, you know, it's vulnerable, right? It's vulnerable from the standpoint that there are distractions that will occur during the workday that normally you wouldn't have had to deal with
27:38
Because the other thing, working from home during a pandemic, guess where the rest of your family is, which normally wouldn't be a problem, right
27:48
Kids right now are trying to do the virtual schooling thing. And let's just call the spade a spade
27:52
That's been an absolute disaster, at least here in the U.S. Schools were not ready for it
27:58
Teachers were not trained for it. The kids were not prepped for it. It's been a mess
28:02
and the remote schooling thing, next time somebody starts talking to me
28:06
about benefits of a remote education, I'm going to slap them upside the head and say, where were you in 2020
28:12
Because if it's just as good as an in-person education, you were not there when we needed you
28:18
You know, the kids, you know, in many cases, particularly in the US
28:24
we think of the school system as something of a daycare system
28:29
I mean, quite literally. It goes off to school and I don't have to think about them for another six or seven hours, right? They're out of, and I
28:35
can focus on work. Here, you can't do that as much, right? And I can't even drop the kid off
28:41
at daycare. I can't even take him to daycare after school, right? And so now I am in a position
28:47
I mean, my kids are grown, right? Joe knows. My boys are in their 20s. They both still live at
28:52
home. One's in college. One actually works at Quicken Loans now. You know, I don't have to worry
28:58
about feeding them. I don't have to worry about changing diapers. I don't have to worry about
29:03
making sure that they're, you know, they're actually on the video call for school. I don't
29:07
have to worry about any of that stuff. Right. I, I have tremendous amounts of respect and sympathy
29:15
for the people who have had to deal with that. And frankly, you know, remember the video clip
29:21
about two, three years ago about the BBC reporter, you know, reporting from South Korea
29:26
and his four or five-year-old daughter comes strutting into the room and his wife slams into the door trying to get her out
29:36
You know what? That's the reality of work from home. And some of the best meetings I've had actually opened by picking up pets
29:44
and introducing the pets to each other over the video camera. The company is now in your home
29:51
And that's really what this is doing. is now we are carving out a part of our home to lease to the company in some respects
29:59
and it's a part of my home. And there are going to be things that happen in my home that the company
30:05
wouldn't be aware of if I was physically on company property. So you know what
30:09
In exchange for the privilege of coming into my home, you're going to have to kind of deal with some of the things that happen
30:15
in my house. Cat may wander in here and start meowing, and I may have to get up and close the door to kick her back out
30:22
or feed her water. And you're just going to have to be okay with that, right? Yeah
30:26
Yeah, that's definitely has become a new normal now that our kids and pets and families are part of our daily work calls, right
30:36
I have a three-year-old and there's no way I can, I tell her, but she's not going, she doesn't understand the difference between, like, why can't she come walking here
30:45
If you can figure out how to get a three-year-old to listen to you, man, forget webcasting
30:50
You've got a future as a parental consultant. I cannot, okay? So I'm not there, yeah
30:55
So, well, great advice. So what we learn is, guys who are watching us, this show, it's very important
31:02
We're going to take a break in two minutes, but let me recap so far. We learn a lot
31:07
Very great advice from both of you. I think one is that we have to separate ourselves mentally prepared that when you are in that room or at your desk
31:19
And I know some of the guys, they don't have their own room. They don't have their offices
31:23
You know, people are joining us from different parts of India, right? In India, I lived in India
31:27
There's just two rooms and it's just open and there's nothing called my room and your room
31:31
That's all it is. So one thing I think we can think of is mentally prepared when you sit on that desk that you are here for work
31:40
And hopefully you don't have any kids and pets coming, joining you
31:45
Definitely, I think having a good quality microphones and headphones, they help
31:51
their noise reduction and all that. The three of us are all doing it without such devices
31:59
I mean, I'm using the microphone and the camera built into the Mac, right
32:05
Yeah. And I can do that because I have a separate space. But even if you've got headphones and microphone
32:11
if you've got somebody else who's working from home right behind you, they're still bleeding. We can hear their voice in some respects
32:17
the physical logistics are generally the easiest solved problems right company can buy you webcams
32:24
company can buy you microphones it's all the other stuff it's all the ancillary stuff and we have as
32:29
much as we want to be able to say find yourself a quality spot dig in hunker down get your work done
32:36
for those of us who have that ability for those of us who have that privilege right that's great
32:43
but we are the statistical minority most people have kids pets spouses you know roommates
32:51
mailman ups shows up at the door door dash is showing up joe and i are on different schedules
32:58
so i may be eating lunch while he's not he may be eating lunch while i'm not you have to be
33:04
compassionate you have to be compassionate if you cannot be compassionate if you cannot put
33:09
yourself into somebody else's shoes, you know, then I have no sympathy for you, Inter
33:16
As we are talking, I see outside the gas guy came and his truck is making a lot of noise
33:22
And every time I have a meeting, the grass guy has to come the same 12 or 1 o'clock when I have
33:29
meetings. It's so loud. All right. So, guys, we're going to take two minutes break. And guys and
33:35
girls who are joining us, as you said, Ted, good point. I need to change my habits saying this guy, right
33:42
Every time you say guys, I'm going to say gals. In my personally, you know, when I'm mine, it means everybody
33:48
So when we come back, we're going to talk about a few other things
33:52
like how do you motivate yourself while working from home and how do you motivate your teammates and what are new trends
34:00
are being, you know, changing when hiring people and working people and you guys both hire people for yourself
34:07
You're working for you. So many of you guys are on the whole entire U.S
34:11
in different cities. We will learn more and talk more on that. Anybody who's watching the show
34:17
please, please put your comment there. Any questions, our goal is make sure
34:20
we answer your questions. Oh, by the way, Brian also had another comment
34:25
He definitely missed that MVP summit party. So we're going to talk about that
34:29
in the second half of this show. We will be right back. All right
34:33
Here at Mindcracker, we create artificial, virtual, and mixed reality games and apps
34:41
voice-enabled skills and apps, and intelligent apps and integrate AI with IoT products
34:48
We offer advisory services for innovations and startups. We provide cloud and code security and performance services
34:58
We also offer AI-ML blockchain development, consulting, and training. Just visit www.mindcracker.us to make your dreams into a reality
35:13
COVID makes us feel like this and work from home like this
35:21
But what if work looked like this? With a leader like this and a payday that feels like this
35:31
Learn how to change your mind and your mindset with the Growth Mindset Show every Friday at 10 a.m. Eastern
35:47
Hey guys, can't believe we haven't seen each other since graduation in May. What's going on
35:53
Not much. With the pandemic, I can't really do anything right now. Me too. I mostly just stay at home, hang out with my dog, and watch the news
36:01
I feel you. Have you guys been able to get jobs yet
36:05
Funny that you ask. Gary and I actually have been working on something together
36:09
Yeah, we came up with an idea for a startup that's an app that will help us stay active since we both have been sitting around so much during this quarantine
36:17
That's genius. I could definitely use something like that. When are you guys launching it
36:22
Well, that's the issue. We don't really know how to build it, so we're kind of stuck
36:26
I know this company that does startup advising if you guys are interested
36:32
oh really? yeah they're called Mindcracker and they'll help you validate your idea
36:37
and connect you with angel investors and help you build everything from your product MVP
36:42
to your technical team and even your go-to market planning and execution
36:47
wow that's awesome do you know how we can get in touch with them? yeah you can just visit their website mindcracker.us
36:55
That's awesome, May. Thanks. I'm excited to get started on this. Of course. Good luck, guys, and let's talk soon. Thanks, May
37:07
All right. Welcome back to the Growth Mindset Show. My name is Mahesh Chan. I have two guests
37:12
here today, Joe, G, and Ted. Both are from Quicken Loans, senior leaders. I've been a community guys
37:19
So you know we were talking about what has changed during COVID times Anybody joining us from different parts make sure please post your comment We will try to cover most of those comments So Ted to continue our conversation Brian
37:38
commented that he definitely missed those MVP parties led by none other than you. So that's
37:46
another part of this COVID, right? We are all a creator of social events, especially the guys
37:54
and girls who are MVPs and, you know, leaders and writers and speakers and authors
38:00
So how this has changed for you and how are you managing that social aspects of life, both of you
38:09
And what do you advise or, you know, suggest to other people? And it's challenging for me, myself, because I'm usually every week, you know, somewhere having beer or with friends
38:21
And so, you know. Yeah. I mean, you ask how we're managing. My answer is poorly, to be really blunt
38:31
You know, I had a number of plans of conferences that I was going to go speak at during the summer
38:41
You know, I was, for example, I was going to be in Krakow, Poland, to speak at an event out there that I absolutely enjoy called DevOx Poland
38:49
it's a more java leaning show but you know my life is split both across the dotnet and the java world
38:57
but i had a couple other you know events too a bunch of the vf5 events a couple of the other
39:02
domestic us events i was going to speak at and all of that just went and one of the things for
39:08
me personally is good number of my friends are other speakers and we all live in different cities
39:15
all over the United States, all over the world. And I don't get to see them
39:20
I don't get to hang out with them. We can do this
39:24
We can do the virtual thing. But it really has been very isolating
39:28
for a large number of people. And, you know, trying to recreate that
39:34
in the virtual space is tricky. It's hard. You know, in many cases
39:38
what we have discovered, I think, collectively as a species, is a lot of our human contact
39:44
was very incidental and ad hoc. You would see people walking through the hallways
39:49
and just catch up. Oh, hey, Joe, how's Dean doing? And I know you guys were planning to
39:55
oh yeah, by the way, we should get together sometime. Next time the Cardinals are playing the Seahawks
39:59
in Seattle or Arizona, we should fly. A lot of that kind of ad hoc conversation
40:05
was where we got a lot of our communication, a lot of our conversation. And that's very hard to do in this sort of remote world
40:12
because you have to schedule something. and it feels a little weird. It almost feels a little creepy
40:17
It's like, hey, Joe, how about you and I schedule a meeting just to banter for 30 minutes
40:21
What do you think? Okay. That's kind of like asking somebody, hey
40:26
do you want to go to the bathroom together? Because that feels kind of at a little bit more intimate level
40:31
It's almost like we're scheduling a meeting. Wait, am I supposed to do that? I've been meaning to tell you about that, Joe
40:38
So, I mean, you know, we humans are social creatures. We really depend
40:48
A large part of our view of ourselves is built off of the view of other people
40:53
No matter how many times you say, I don't really care what other people think. You know, if you really didn't care what other people think
40:58
you wouldn't tell me that you don't care what other people think because you're trying to convince me that you don't care
41:03
So you do care about what I think. You care whether I think that you care whether other people think
41:08
At the end of the day, we're social creatures. We all of us want that human connection. We want that human contact. And we haven't been able to do that during the pandemic. And it's driving us nuts. I mean, this is a large part of the reason why so many people do not want to wear masks. They do not want to socially distance. They want to have parties because they desperately crave. They couldn't necessarily put it in words, but they desperately crave that human contact
41:35
and you know i i mean point blank there's a there's a guy on my team and he has said you know
41:41
i'm a hugger i i can't wait for us to get back together and give all of you hugs you know um
41:48
and i'm kind of in that same boat right i really really want to go out and sit around a table and
41:54
you know break bread and drink and you know wine or non-alcohol or whatever
41:59
I'm a social creature. We all are social creatures and trying to find replacements
42:06
You know, we're not quite there yet. Teams and Zoom and these other tools, they're helpful
42:11
but they don't replace in-person communication, in-person contact any more than the telephone did when it was first introduced
42:19
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think I was joking around with someone the other day
42:25
I think it was actually the same person that, you know, you were talking about that when we do the MVP summit in person that, you know, normally there's that extra day where people are traveling
42:37
I think they need to add an extra day because the first day is just going to be people walking around hugging each other all day and catching up
42:45
And, you know, like you said, we're social creatures. I mean, when this first started, Mahesh had the C-sharp corner conference that was supposed to happen, I think, like two weeks into this where, you know, we were looking, hey, am I canceling our flights or, you know, what are we going to have
43:04
And, you know, to me, the biggest thing has been meeting people
43:09
You know, I've gone, like you said, you know, you've obviously flown a lot or seen a lot more cities than I have
43:15
But, you know, I was supposed to go to Bulgaria this year or supposed to go to India again this year, France and a couple other places
43:24
And it's not so much the destinations. Those are always cool. But it's meeting all the people and getting to hang out
43:31
And, you know, I have a lot of good people that I talk to on a regular basis now that I've met, you know, just from just from doing this
43:40
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, on the plus side, it has helped in a couple of other things
43:47
So, you know, I've been me personally been expanding my presence online by doing streaming
43:54
And for me, that's helped practice public speaking in general. So I'm not, in theory, speaking in front of 200 people for the first time
44:04
I'm perfecting the craft, so to speak, from a public speaker standpoint
44:10
so i look at it that way and it's just a temporary pause until we hopefully get back to
44:18
you know real in-person events where we can see each other and hang out because you know
44:23
honestly if those in-person events would happen i would have never met ted
44:27
some might say that's a good thing i would consider that i mean i i agree like most of our like my network i'm sure same as yours we
44:36
meet at either MVP summit or conference and usual group. That's how we become friends because other thing for me as a con these
44:46
conferences and events was to take like a mental break from the routine. Right
44:53
And then also energize enough go back entire year to work enough and go you know wait for the next MVP summit or conference and so on and so forth Well even beyond the mental break because I think that calling it a mental break reinforces
45:09
the idea that somehow conferences are a vacation and they're really not
45:13
I mean, you get more mentally exhausted going to a conference than you do at your day-to-day job
45:18
And part of that is because you are breaking down some of the internal barriers that you have
45:24
It's a concept known as groupthink, right? When you're like working as part of the same team for a period of time, all of you tend to start thinking the same way because you've come up with a solution to a problem that seems to be working because if it wasn't working, you'd have changed it by now
45:42
So you all start thinking along the same lines, right? So whenever you run into a particular scenario, particularly if you're a software engineer, the first solution is, oh, we've got to build a website
45:52
We've got to build a database, right? We focus on tools because that's what we do
45:57
And the opportunity to go to a conference there, the so-called hallway track, the presentations are great
46:03
And I say that as a presenter. Don't get me wrong, right? The presentations are not really the reason you go to a conference
46:10
What you really go for is the hallway track because part of what you're looking to do, and this is a thing that I have frequently told my students when I was teaching at the University of Washington
46:20
Part of what you are really looking to do is to create your tribe. You create the group of people, your peer group that you can feel comfortable bouncing ideas off of and saying, hey, has anybody ever heard of this programming language Elixir? What's up with that? Why are people getting really excited about that? Should I study Ruby? What do you guys think? Is Python the only way to do machine learning
46:44
are all these questions you're going to have, particularly when you're first getting started in your career
46:49
And having that peer group, having that tribe is absolutely crucial. And you can build your tribe out of your colleagues at work
46:57
But then what happens when you leave that workplace? Because let's be honest, you're going to leave at some point
47:04
And then what do you do? You have to build your tribe all from scratch again
47:09
And the internets and these kinds of conversations, what you've been doing with C Sharp Corner Online
47:14
This is an opportunity for people to build that peer group that doesn't have to be physically in the same place
47:20
Conferences are another such opportunity. You go in, you sit down, you see Joe or myself talking on something, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
47:28
You walk out and you go, man, I wonder if that's something that you could actually use if you're doing Java instead of .NET
47:35
The person next to you goes, oh, yeah, we've done that for years over in the Java space
47:39
And you're like, really? Talk to me more. you're learning a bunch of things as you're walking in the hallway from one thing to the next
47:46
the hallway track is really important um you know you get opportunities to walk up and talk to the
47:55
you know the so-called experts myself joe anybody else but part of the thing to understand is the
48:01
people around you are in some cases more important than us because the people around you will be in
48:07
similar situations, they will have experiences, et cetera. When I deliver a talk, I'm usually
48:13
delivering it context-free, right? Hey, I'm going to be here today to talk to you about some, you
48:18
know, source generators and C-sharp, and I don't know your place of business. I don't know the
48:24
problems you're trying to solve, et cetera, et cetera. Don't take my advice blindly. The people
48:29
sitting around you, in many cases, are going to be in context very similar to your own, and
48:36
build off of what they're hearing. If they've done it, if they've talked about it, if they tried
48:41
it and abandoned it, that's all hugely valuable. And you want to make those connections, you want
48:47
to make those feelers so that then you can build up and avoid getting channeled in that group
48:53
thing and always thinking that C-sharp is the answer. So that brings to my new question, right
48:58
This is great. So, you know, networking, we know that networking is so important, especially in IT
49:04
it's just like, you know, they say there's data so that 92% of hiring is actually done through who you know, right
49:11
So the connections and relationships. So that's how I got you. Yeah. So, yeah, exactly. That's how you get, because, you know
49:20
my question is now the young guys or girls who are watching us
49:25
this is going to change me. I need to come up with a new word. Young folks who are watching us
49:29
Folks work. But how do you in this, you know, I see this, this is going to go like remote work is going to grow now
49:38
How do you, what's your suggestion to them? How should they network, build their professional network and relationships while they are trying to build this, their career
49:49
What are some tips you want you can give them, say, do these things while you're working from home and also grow your network
49:55
I think the easiest thing to do is get out there. I mean, right now with, and I mean, get out there as in
50:04
You mean virtually. Virtually get out there, not get out there as in outside. There are so many different ways that we communicate now
50:13
Like I said, I started streaming six months ago. Get out there, look at that, you know, see how other people are doing things
50:21
Interact. I mean, there's Twitter, there's Instagram, there's Snapchat, there's TikTok, there's Twitch
50:29
There's so many different ways where people are just, hey, I'm here
50:33
Come hang out. Be interactive. Just don't be. I mean, I can't see the stats here, but I'm guessing there's eight, nine hundred people watching this right now
50:42
And four people in the last 10 minutes have said anything. Be interactive
50:47
Start the conversation. Don't make Facebook, Twitter, whatever you're watching. Don't be a spectator
50:58
Be an active participant. That's how you start building it. I've met a lot of people that I haven't physically seen at conferences that I don't even know what they look like outside of their avatar because they interacted with me or I interacted with them on Facebook or Twitter
51:13
Put yourself out there. First comes the worst. You can always, you know, turn it off or block the person
51:20
You know, delete the account, uninstall Twitter or Facebook or what have you
51:25
You know, and even once we get out of this pandemic lockdown, you know, don't ignore the in-person events
51:32
Go to local user groups. If you don't have a local user group, start one. Right
51:36
You can use the Internet for reach, but there's no reason why you have to stop with just the Internet
51:42
getting out, meeting people, talking to people. The same thing is true at work, right? Now
51:50
here, really, to do it effectively, it helps if the business has some support structures in place
51:57
So one of the things that I'm working on building inside of Revolone's is a formal mentorship
52:03
program. So that if you are a young developer, like my son, who is interested in improving their
52:11
skills and you know one of all a bunch of these different categories they can
52:16
put themselves into some kind of system whether it's an online system or whether
52:21
it just a human system right just you got some you know somebody some program manager who got a notebook and they writing down names here on the left of people who want mentoring the topics they interested in And then over here on the right you got a list of all the names of people who can provide mentoring in those topics
52:37
That would work just as well. Even within, you know, in some cases, we've had some teams and some trains inside of QL who have stood up informal mentoring programs within their scoped unit of work
52:51
Right. If you're a team leader, you can certainly do that. You can say, hey, here's the new person on the team
52:57
We're going to pair them with this more senior person on the team. Go out to lunch once a month
53:02
Go out to lunch once a week. Whatever cadence works well for your business
53:08
The company, I think, has a responsibility to try to help facilitate some of that
53:13
But at the end of the day, really the benefit is for you and for the senior, by the way
53:19
Mentorship is definitely a two-way street. So, you know, don't wait for the company to provide it. Advocate for yourself. Self-advocacy is one of the most critical skills that anybody new to their career can learn. If you're not getting something you need, stand up and say, I'm not getting something I need. How can I figure that out
53:37
I guarantee you that if you talk to your boss, your leader, your manager, whatever term you use for them, you talk to your teammates, you talk to some of the people in other teams, if you talk to any of those three groups and say, I'm really looking for somebody to help me learn more about, somebody will say, yeah, I would love to meet with you
53:58
I would love to hang out and chat and yada, yada, yada. And boom, right
54:03
At least for you, problem solved, at least temporarily. Repeat that every so often
54:09
Make sure you pay it forward to the people who are also looking for it. And lo and behold, you've started to create an informal mentoring system inside the company
54:18
And good things can happen from there. Great. Definitely, yeah. Definitely go out there, ask questions and ask help
54:26
There's a lot of people who are willing to help. So that brings to my another question
54:30
So you hire, you know, in your team, you hire a bunch of people and you still continue to hiring it
54:37
What trends are you seeing at your work or what are you like adopting new technologies, especially in, say, .NET, Microsoft or Java or these latest software trends
54:48
What do you see now? Like, what are you hiring now? What kind of people and what do you see trends going forward
54:56
You know, what will you be hiring more? I know cloud is growing. I know a lot of machine learning is growing
55:02
Automation is growing and so on and so forth. So it's interesting because when you ask that question
55:09
you go straight to the technical skills. Frankly, I'm not so concerned about the technical skills
55:16
When I'm looking to hire somebody, I'm looking for people to have three qualities
55:20
They are hungry, they are humble, and they are smart. and all of those technical skills can fall into that smart category but you'll notice that's only
55:30
one of three and in many cases being hungry and humble that humility is often what allows people
55:37
to become smart because if i hire somebody who is just smart right and they're not hungry you know
55:44
in terms of doing better in terms of ambition etc and they're not humble right smart without humble
55:50
is arrogance. And in many cases, those kinds of people can destroy a team
55:55
So hungry, humble, and smart is what I'm looking for, because truthfully, everything else can be
56:00
taught. Well said, very well said. And that's where I think we miss a lot of things is
56:06
you know, we don't look for that humble part. I see a lot of people that are super smart
56:10
and they don't Twitter, they go and they're just so arrogant, they're talking about this and that
56:15
and all. So I kind of agree with you, Joe, you want to add something for, I know you're on the
56:20
same team, so I'm sure you align with what Ted just said. I mean, yeah, that's one of the reasons
56:26
why, you know, we brought Ted on and, you know, it's part of our tech culture because he shares
56:30
the same beliefs. But, you know, for the most part at QL, that's our philosophy, you know
56:35
having certain technical skills gets you semi in the door. But what we hire for is that culture fit
56:44
that you're smart, you're humble, you're honest, things like that because you can learn the tech stack
56:50
I mean, if you have the engineering abilities, you can learn whether it's Java, .NET, Erlang, Elixir
56:58
that stuff can be learned. But some of the soft skills is what's really important
57:03
which is why I say go out there, put yourself out there
57:08
which is a really hard thing to do for a lot of engineers because a lot of engineers are introverts by nature
57:14
just the way that our mind works. So you get a couple like us that are more the extroverts
57:20
Yes. So that's great. So I mean, Brian's right. Yeah. So Brian, we need to get Brian on this show
57:32
next. Maybe next time I'll reach out to you, Brian. We definitely need you on the show
57:36
a lot of good advice. So we have a few more minutes to go
57:41
And I think one thing, you know, one question a lot of these
57:45
you know, young developers, they ask is like, I want to change my career. What should I learn
57:50
I know you want hungry. That's great. And you have to have hungry. You have to be humble
57:55
But to get you to that level, even to interview, right? You have to have certain things
58:00
on your resume before. You still need to say, you know what? We are hiring a three years
58:05
four or five years experience program. who should have done these, these, these, right
58:09
Or you don't care. If you ask, no, I mean, what can you also add to that
58:14
Because that's the question, you know, we get this question a lot
58:18
Oh, I want to switch to my career. What should I learn? Should I learn cloud
58:22
Should I learn this? Well, in many respects, what people are often looking for is
58:28
you know, what is that magic pill? What is that secret sauce
58:32
What is the one true thing I need to know in order to get a job? And the funny thing is, if you want to get a job as a software developer, you have to know how to develop software, right
58:44
I mean, you know, in the same way that if I wanted a job as an electrician, I need to know how to wire things
58:48
And if I want a job as a plumber, I need to know how to plumb things. But within that, I mean, you know, what speaks to you
58:56
Go learn any of them. You want to go learn Python first? Go learn Python. There's a ton of Python jobs out there
59:01
You want to go learn JavaScript? Go learn JavaScript, right? In many cases, what people are doing is they're fixating on what is the perfect answer. And the fact of the matter is there is no perfect answer. There is no one skill that everybody will hire that if you have it, they'll ignore everything else
59:21
Don't get me wrong. I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for anybody who's trying to get a get their first technical job
59:29
Right. And even within Quicken Loans. Right. We recognize that a lot of people want to try to make that sort of career shift
59:37
We actually have a program internally twice a year. We run an internal boot camp called DevBuild where people who are non-technical
59:46
And I really hate using that phrase. In other words, people who are not software developers. Yeah
59:50
Can go learn things like C Sharp, ASP.NET, some JavaScript, TypeScript, Angular, et cetera
59:56
They spend like 15 weeks taking classes and when they graduate, they're guaranteed a position somewhere inside of the family of companies, right
1:00:06
And that's part of how we are staffing up the next generation. Because this is a thing I think a lot
1:00:12
of companies don't quite understand. All these companies are standing up and saying, we want
1:00:18
senior full stack engineers. Okay, first of all, full stack, that's a myth. That's a myth. There
1:00:23
is nobody who is full stack. Teams can be full stack, but people are not. What you're asking for
1:00:29
when you say you want a full stack engineer is you want a cog. You want a generic piece that you can
1:00:37
plug anywhere because you as a manager, you don't want to have to think hard about how your team
1:00:43
works together. And if somebody leaves, you can just plug in a new one. That's laziness on the
1:00:48
part of the manager, truthfully. I'm very, very adamant about this. There is no such thing as a
1:00:54
full stack engineer. Everybody brings different strengths and weaknesses, right? We've often
1:00:58
talked about people being T-shaped. You've got some breadth and you've got some depth, right
1:01:05
The thing of it is, on a given team, particularly if we want to create some of these, you know
1:01:10
sort of, you know, independent, you know, full feature, full stack teams, you need somebody who's
1:01:16
really good at UI. You need somebody who's really good at middleware. You need somebody who's really
1:01:20
good at database. Building those skills, hiring people for those skills, that's hard work
1:01:26
companies though right now because they see hiring as a necessary evil they're like let's just do
1:01:34
whatever the minimum we need to do in order to find people to bring bodies in the door
1:01:39
we'll say senior full stack engineer so we don't have to invest too much they can just
1:01:43
hit the ground running nobody ever hits the ground running it takes you at least six months
1:01:48
to figure out the dynamics on your team the dynamics around your team to figure out the
1:01:52
software project you're building, all of that stuff takes time. Most companies are not spending
1:01:59
any amount of time thinking about the next generation of developers. And that's why they
1:02:05
are constantly fighting and poaching with all these other companies for this limited collection
1:02:10
of senior software engineers. Don't go looking for the senior engineers because trying to suck
1:02:16
water out of a dry well generally only brings up mud. Build them. Build them. Commit to having 20
1:02:26
of your workforce be associate level And if you not willing to commit to 20 of your workforce 20 of your software development force your data intelligence force or your IT support force if you not
1:02:38
willing to commit to 20% of them being juniors with zero years of experience, don't cry to me
1:02:44
about you can't find people. Because they're there, they're out there, they're hungry. And
1:02:50
the people that you give their first job to will be the most loyal people you have, particularly
1:02:55
if you invest in them. Remember when I started this conversation, QL has spent a tremendous
1:03:00
amount of time over the last 35 years investing in the culture of the company, investing in its
1:03:06
employees, doing the right thing by its people. And that paid off in spades for us when we had
1:03:12
asked them to give us a part of their home and to let us into their lives. And if your company is
1:03:20
willing to invest in people, you will get that kind of investment paid off tenfold. But you've
1:03:27
got to be willing to invest. If you're not willing to invest, don't cry to me, Argentina
1:03:32
No, that's well said. That's well said. And I think that was my last question for the show was
1:03:37
how, you know, you are kind of, Joe told me you are responsible for building a culture within the
1:03:43
company. And it looks like that's where you are doing and your company is doing and they are
1:03:48
and reinvesting in their own kind of families, like people who are working for you becomes like a family
1:03:56
To be clear, QL had a very, very strong company culture long before I joined
1:04:03
Dan Gilbert, the founder, has done an amazing job in terms of communicating the philosophies
1:04:08
of how he wants to run the business. What I am doing in many cases is figuring out
1:04:14
how to take some of those things and extend them deeper inside of technology
1:04:18
But more importantly, the people who work for me in many cases are doing the things that other people in technology are passionate about but aren't paid to do
1:04:32
Honestly, Joe could come over and take over tech culture and run it just as well or better than I because he's got a lot of those same kinds of passions
1:04:40
At the end of the day, he's responsible for a team of software developers who deliver software
1:04:45
That's where they have to go. you can tell what a company values by where they spend their most precious
1:04:53
resource which is to say headcount if the software company actually values its
1:04:59
people it will invest headcount in growing those people if the software company only sees people as cogs in a machine they need to learn at home They not allowed to go to conferences
1:05:11
They can't take time during the day to read a book. They don't have any 20% focus time
1:05:16
Hackathons, no, not here. We need you to work. That tells me you treat your people like machines, like cogs
1:05:23
and don't be surprised. If you treat people like commodities, you will discover very quickly that that reputation gets around
1:05:29
and you won't be able to get the high quality commodities anymore. Just kind of how that works
1:05:35
Invest in your people. It will be repaid. Well said. Well said
1:05:39
So any last word, Joe, from you before we close the show
1:05:44
Ted said most of it. One thing I would add is, you know
1:05:50
if you're looking for that one technology, like Ted said, it isn't there
1:05:54
Find what you're passionate about. If you're passionate about something that people will see that and will see that growth in you
1:06:01
So if you're passionate about Python or .NET is your thing or Java is your thing, work on that
1:06:09
That'll get you in the door and that will show people your career path or how you learn
1:06:14
And that will help get you in that door. How do you demonstrate your hunger
1:06:20
Right. Yep. That's really what, you know, when people talk about passion, what we're really talking about is hunger, right
1:06:26
How do you demonstrate that you want this? It can be hard for some people, no question
1:06:31
Some people are in very different situations than Joe and myself in terms of, you know, supportive spouse and I have free time, etc
1:06:38
If you're a single parent, trying to do the coding at home can be a ridiculously difficult thing to do
1:06:44
You get it. Can you find other ways to demonstrate that hunger
1:06:50
And in some cases, you know, that hunger is I am willing to, you know, I'm willing to interview repeatedly until I find somebody who's willing to give me that opportunity
1:07:01
But the fact of the matter is companies need to open their eyes to the fact that those people are out there
1:07:06
And right now you're filtering them out because you're saying five years C sharp on the job description
1:07:12
And when you do that, lots of people are now selected out or filtered out by your HR department
1:07:17
open your mind, open your heart, open your open it up to the idea of people who don't have that
1:07:23
formal experience, but have been, you know, tinkering with games for the last 10 years
1:07:28
and actually installed Unity and built a couple of games you know ask them beyond those stock questions don look for those those tried and true marks of success like a degree I be honest with everybody on this call My degree is not in
1:07:44
computer science. My degree is in international relations. My international relations degree has
1:07:49
prepared me far better for a career in this industry than a CS degree does. But I spent the
1:07:55
first five years justifying my international relations degree. That was seen as a negative
1:07:59
and what I learned when I took a couple of CS courses in university was I learned about
1:08:04
algorithms. Let me ask you how many times I've actually had to puzzle out an algorithm on the job
1:08:11
The interview for what you actually need the people to do, not what was used to interview
1:08:19
you in the past. Well said, well said. So both of you, I think we learned a lot. I learned a lot
1:08:27
today, frankly speaking, from the show. And I think what we can say now is to
1:08:32
have a new coach, as Steve Jobs said, stay hungry, stay foolish. Here, we
1:08:39
can say, you don't need to be smart as long as you stay hungry and stay
1:08:43
humble. And there are plenty of jobs for you. Yeah. Yep. The more
1:08:49
you know, the more you know you don't know. You know who told me that? Yarnas Drewstrup, the guy who invented C++
1:08:56
Well, well said. Well said. So both of you, thank you so much for coming. I know it's early and Ted really appreciate you coming on the show. Joe, again, you are helping us a lot during this pandemic and other guys and girls, folks. I didn't change my word on that
1:09:15
Thank you so much. And you both have a safe weekend and time ahead
1:09:21
Looks like we have vaccine here coming soon. Hopefully soon things will get better and we'll probably meet in person
1:09:28
Can't wait. Someday. Bye-bye, guys. Thank you, guys. Thank you
#Career Resources & Planning
#Jobs
#Virtual Worlds