Growth Mindset Show Ep. 5 - 2022

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Good morning and welcome to this another episode of growth mindset show it's February 11th today

Friday I'm here outside of Philadelphia weather looks nice today it's getting a little better I

think it's 50 degrees nice but we're all stuck in the home today we have a special episode

We are going to talk about some new things in .NET, Blazor, and life during COVID and after COVID, how it's going to happen

Our guest is Bill Wolf. Bill Wolf, if you don't know, he is a veteran community leader

And we'll do more introductions later. If you are joining us first time, welcome to the show

If you are joining us back, welcome back to the show. as you know that this show is for you this show is for people who are watching it and purpose

really is to answer your questions help you grow in your career if you have any questions feel free

to post comment on whether you are watching us from youtube facebook twitter doesn't matter

make sure you post your questions uh welcome to the show namaste Ganesh

you're back I see a bunch of people coming back thank you for joining us back so today is very

planned show we just want to bring our guest in and we're going to chit chat about the future

in the past in the current what's going on in software development in Microsoft work

that's how our focus is today so let's bring in our guest Bill Woh

Hey, good. How are you? Doing okay. All right, all right. So a lot of our audience who are joining us, they may not know who Bill Wolf is

You want to start with telling everybody who you are, the introduction, and what you do

I'm just a mild-mannered .NET consultant. I've been doing this stuff over 40 years

So you've been doing Microsoft for a long time. A long, long time, yes

A long, long time. Probably the, yeah, you said 40 years. That's a lot

Some of these guys were joining us. They're probably 25 years old. Yeah, I remember one of the first conferences I went to as I was getting in the community was the Sybase conference in San Francisco

and that was before Microsoft purchased SQL Server from Sybase. Oh, wow

And I had just learned how to do SQL syntax and I never imagined like 35, 40 years later

I'd still be doing it every day. SQL syntax. But it works

Yeah, it works. So if you compare 30 years, 35 years ago when you started SQL and programming and building software, when you compare that and now, what is the big difference, major difference you see overall

The biggest difference? Well, I guess the biggest thing is how everybody works online these days

You know, if you think back to the 80s, if you wanted to learn this stuff, you went out and bought a book from a bookstore

Or you went to a conference and attended an in-person lecture. There were no user group online

There were no Twitters. It was much harder to get the information that you wanted

and uh you know a lot of that stuff you had to sort of be self-taught you get a book you could

try all the examples and teach yourself and uh and the same with you know finding jobs uh can you

imagine a world in which there's no linkedin uh and there there is no indeed to find jobs that you

You know, people used to like call me on a landline phone and I had to carry business cards all the time

And that's how you got your name around. And today things happen so much faster

The fact that everything is online and you can reach out and, you know, ask questions or get answers within seconds

It's just I never imagined that we would get to this point

But here we are. Yeah, I remember back in the days when working with, you know

Win32 and C++ and VC++, there was no help documentation. You have to look at the .h file and look at the signatures

and figure out how to call it from your code. Yeah, you probably had this as well as I did

but I had a whole wall in my office of MSDN kits with CDs

And the documentation was on those CDs. And we used to put those in our computers and bring up the help screens

And that how we would go find out how to work with an SDK Yeah Now it way too easy Yeah So yeah I agree So you know let talk about and C Sharp

And I remember it was December, 1999. I know .NET is celebrating like 20 years anniversary this year now

But it was actually December, 1999. One of my friend, co-worker, he gave me two CDs

He's like, hey, check this out. I just got this from Microsoft, and it has something called C Sharp compiler

I'm not sure what it is. And that's where I started C Sharp

It was December 99. When did you start C Sharp and .NET

Well, you know, we're going to be honest in this talk, right

Yes, we're definitely going to be honest. Well, I was heavily in the SQL in the 80s all the way through today

In the 80s and 90s, I was very well known nationally for a product called Revelation

And it was basically a freeform database and very powerful. But it really didn't survive into the 2000s

And that was based on the language PICK, P-I-C-K. and they had something called pick basic and uh i got heavily in the visual basic in the

mid-90s into the my 2005 uh realm uh because microsoft was really pushing that

and you know it was natural for me because of working with this pick product

so i did a fair amount of that um and i didn't get into c sharp as much until i'd say

closer to 2010. Okay. Yeah. And then Microsoft launched .NET in 2001

So I guess that's when you really start working with .NET. Correct. Correct

And I used to go, I became a Microsoft MVP around, I think it was 2002 or so

Because I was doing a lot of the user group stuff. you know, since the early 80s

And I got recognized for my efforts there, and they made me an MVP

And I used to go to Redmond and work with the product team

And back then, it was almost like politics today. They took all the Visual Basic people, put them in one room

and then they took all the C Sharp people, put them in another room, and they weren't allowed to talk to each other

and it took it took uh you know it took maybe four or five years before they realized that you

know this is silly we should work with all the languages as one and uh and in the mvb community

they started doing that and uh they really pushed hard to sort of make parity between the languages

it's sort of meaningless now because basically you go on a job search nobody really looks for

Visual Basic talent much anymore. But all of those developers have sort of moved into the C-Sharp

realm or some of the new fancier languages. I just want to

try Flutter because I like to say it. Flutter. It's not Flutter

Wouldn't you want to be a Flutter MVP? I would not. I'm going

blazer route. I want to wear a nice cool blazer. That's where I'm going. tell my mother, I flutter and she says

you shouldn't do that in public. You know what I'm saying? Yep

So, you know, now fast forward, now it's like we are in 2022

and .NET 6 was just released by Microsoft. What are you still doing, working with .NET 6

Every day. Oh, yeah? You want to hear about it? So it's fun

And this will give all of you in the audience something to live for

Because I'm 67. I'm still doing C Sharp a couple hours a day

I do SQL Server stuff at least five or six hours a day

I'm 100% work from home. I've got two major clients I work with now

One is a really large, I work on very large websites. So I work in the human resource area

So like this week, I worked on Amazon, MasterCard, FedEx, Microsoft. That's my standard day is working on their websites

And I do a lot of content management. And what that means is almost all fancy websites are database driven

And when you get into the human resource area, they get quite complex because everything you show on the screen has to be essentially role based

You know, what a manager sees is going to be different from what a line employee sees

and all of that is database-driven and, you know, and you have little bits of HTML and it says

you know, this is what you show to the managers in Asia. This is what you show to the managers in

Europe. And so a lot of my job is to manage all of that data and make sure that it is correct

and it can respond quickly. And to do that, I have to move data around a lot. And when I say around

you know, it's like, oh, cool. You know, we're going to have two databases. We'll have a staging

database and a production database. Well, in my world, those databases could be on servers in

different continents. And very likely there is extreme security. There are SOC 2 compliance

issues things like that like who can actually look at data and who can move the data uh and then

um in the job i'm doing which you know i work with hundreds and hundreds of databases and

hundreds of websites we're moving everything to the cloud yeah uh almost 100 azure um so

we have to be able to take data from like one environment move it to another and uh and actually

this is something i'm working on this week is i'm developing tools to move all of our portals

from on-premise and what on-premise for us means we host virtual machines

and those virtual machines essentially build a private cloud for a client

so a client like fedex they would run their hr system on the machines that i help manage

and those are all in our data centers which are in either europe or texas or i think tennessee i think is the other one Anyways we have to be able to move the data around safely and securely

And I write a lot of utilities to manage the data. And all of those utilities are all in C Sharp

And the way I write things, I like to keep up with the latest

So everything I'm doing is Visual Studio 2022. two. All the newer utilities I have are .NET 6 console apps. I notoriously hate Entity Framework

So I just find it too wordy and too mysterious. I like to be closer to the SQL language

So I use DAPR as my ORM. And I've been having a lot of fun lately with DAPR Plus, which is

that's not a free ORM. That's an add-on. But what that does is

if you're familiar in the world of SQL, there's something called Bulk Insert

Well, this guy has written an excellent library that does bulk inserts and updates

So if you want to move data in large quantities like from on-premise to Azure

you read in the data, you put it into a, you can use a list or an IEnumerable

any of those constructs. But you basically read that in. You might massage it, make some changes to it

using link statements. And then you basically pass it to a bulk insert

and it automatically figures out how to get the stuff to the target SQL server really fast

And so I'm very interested with that. That's interesting. So it looks like you're doing .NET 6, you're doing C Sharp, I guess C Sharp 10

Okay. So the other part of my work, and there's actually two directions here

For the big company I work for, we have a lot of support people

We have client service managers. We have people that deploy and train customers how to use the portals

They have to be able to see essentially or navigate through all the content

And like I just worked on MasterCard site. It has, you know, 50,000 items of content worldwide

And so I build websites in Blazor that expose all of the back-end SQL data in a way that our employees can go and find things and understand like, okay, well, this page has five modules on it

one of them is a content block and the content block has 20 items in it and of those 20 items

three of them can be seen by somebody from the united states so they have to be able to like

drill down and find all this stuff and i build all that using blazer and uh i'm uh i just i i use

the telerik tools of blazer okay they're the best but you know they've really served me well over the

last couple of years. So I'm pretty devoted to them. Yeah. Well, good thing is good thing with

you is you're not going to have millions of people using the website. So just utility. So

for you, those controls and, you know, make sense. And I'm assuming you use Blazor server

because it's kind of similar to our old way. Correct. Correct. In this environment, you know

the Blazor WebAssembly wouldn't really add much value to us. Now, I do have another client I work with

I was approached the middle of this year about looking at an application

that a startup had written for educational market. And they wanted me to see if I could get it working and fix it

And I coerced them into essentially letting me rewrite the whole thing. And and that originally that was an angular connected to a C sharp back end. But it was written. It was written, I think, by an overseas outfit. And the C sharp back end was like circa 2015

like really old techniques. I said, well, yeah, we can sort of make this run

but this isn't going to be easy to support long-term. So I convinced them to let me show you a prototype

And I basically rebuilt their whole thing using SQL Azure, Azure App Service

I'm using App Insights. I'm using, you know, that one's still C Sharp

9 and .NET 5. I'm going to get it migrated up eventually

But that worked out pretty well. So that was fun. I learned an awful lot about Azure in the last

six months. That's great. So there is a related question here. Like when you look at C Sharp, .NET, you know, performance

and speed compared to you just work on Angular, for example. what's your thought

also compared to even C Sharp 5 or earlier versions well that's sort of a loaded question

the application that I rebuilt runs significantly faster than the one that was written in Angular

even though it's Blazor server now a couple things going on there um they didn't really optimize their back-end sequel

yeah and that's one of the things i'm really good at so i i gained a lot of performance by by tweaking

indexing you know store procedures here and there things like that but um when i first started this

Blazor gets faster every time they release. Yeah. And significant change when they got to .NET 6

which I haven't even deployed for them yet. So they're gaining a lot of ground on what you can do

with Angular and products like that. And I just, I find the simplicity

and consistency of using C Sharp on the back end and the front end

is just a godsend for a developer. I don't want to have to, you know, I used to be pretty good at Angular

maybe three or four years ago. There's too many weird stuff you have to remember

Yeah, plus you have to type a lot of code, and IntelliSense is not as friendly as Visual Studio, I would say

Well you know what what what what made my big change in Angular because I started doing that I used to teach classes in it and stuff and you know five years ago and and then you know all the angular guys started using

uh typescript yeah and i'm like yeah i know who i know the guy who wrote typescript i've met him a

number of times at microsoft conferences yeah and i started using typescript and i said this is

starting to feel a lot like c sharp yeah and then and then you know steve sanderson invents this

blazer thing and i'm like oh i can't even get c sharp and just forget about javascript yeah and

it's funny because you know i build pretty complex websites and i don't i don't i might write like uh

i i think the the that application i wrote for the educational market has like you know maybe

20 30 000 lines of code yeah and i would say maybe a hundred lines of it are javascript

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I just built a simple app, Blazor. I'm learning Blazor just for fun

And I can even separate my C-Shop files. Oh, it's not fun. Mahesh, it's a serious tool

Yeah, it is very much fun. If I can do it, I can build websites using Blazor

Anybody can do it because I do not like building websites. I do not like HTML

I do not like JavaScript. So if I can do it, anybody can do it

Well, it gets more interesting if you're doing role-based authentication and doing that within a cloud environment

A lot of stuff you got to learn. Yeah, yeah. Let's not bring the course issues across

We, clients, especially bigger clients, they make a big deal out of all these things. Yep

It's complicated. Yes, for that app, I had to go through a security review

Yeah. So, yes, for the big clients. So everybody, welcome to the show today. We are talking to Bill Wolf. Bill Wolf is a veteran leader in community. He's Microsoft MVP, you are a trainer, you're an author. You still do hands-on coding, even though you are only 50 plus years old, which you still do hands-on coding, C-sharp and .NET

Everybody, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. And we'll continue chatting for a little longer

So, Bill, I know you run a user group. It's one of the biggest user group in our area, in Philadelphia area

You want a little bit to talk about that? Yeah, I'm a little saddened by the state of the user community right now

So my forte was running in-person conferences. I did that for well over 20 years

I ran some of the larger code camps in the United States

And I was very active in the international level with the .NET community early on with an organization called Inetta

And it's sad because COVID sort of put an end to all of that

But, you know, we haven't done an in-person meeting in Philly in about, I think it's 23 months

We haven't done a code camp in two and a half years. Now, we did an online code camp last January

And that was fairly successful. But it wasn't anything as interesting as going to a conference in person

yeah and uh and and what what's amazing is you know because i i did that for decades i i went to

conferences for microsoft products and pre-microsoft i was into the apple world can you

imagine that oh you were wow i i went to the first apple fest in boston you know it's like

but that and that was a cool story because i was uh i was a school teacher then yeah and i was in

my very early 20s and I remember driving to Boston from Philadelphia, my little Subaru

and sort of sleeping in the car so I could go to Apple Fest. And I was just fascinated by all of

that. And that was like pre-Microsoft days. That must have been in the mid-90s. But yeah

Yeah, you know, we don't have the big conferences anymore like Microsoft Build

And Mahesh and I have been at a number of MVP summits, which are in person, and we haven't done that in two years

And, you know, we still run some online meetings using Teams, but we don't get anywhere near the attendance

We did a meeting recently, had 150 people signed up, 20 showed up for the virtual talk

And I think a lot of this, and it's probably good for the developers, but a lot of this is because all of these events now are recorded

So there really isn't a lot of reason to attend things live

But if you don't attend them live, then you can't like ask questions and get like that back and forth that you normally get in a conference

You know, most of what I learned in an in-person conference isn't from the presenters

It's from the attendees. And I, you know, I sit in the audience, I ask the guy next to me, like, you know, what are you working on

You know, why are you doing that? And they point me to somebody else and you just start networking with people and you learn all sorts of fascinating things

And I guess, you know, to a sense, you can do that today using tools like Twitter and, you know, and all these discussion boards and all

But it just doesn't seem to me, it doesn't it doesn't hit home as much as doing all of this in person

So I miss all that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in person, you also build relationships like networks, like most of us, our friends circle and people we work with are from in-person meetings

strike like mvp summit um that part i definitely agree that's kind of missing and i think there's

also a big fatigue online events are happening so many of them so people are kind of that was the

only thing i was going to mention there's way too many sources i you can log on any day and say like

you know i want to learn blazer and you know you'll get a whole bunch of recorded talks you'll

You'll get recorded training sessions. You'll get tutorials. There's so many things at your disposal

You can just teach yourself. But we're all ending up like everybody's sitting at home, staring at their screens

teaching themselves. They're not talking to each other enough. And Mahesh is part of the problem because he's great at Twitter

Once in a while, they just got to pick up the phone and talk to somebody

Well, I did call you, but you didn't pick up though. So you cannot blame me on that

Yeah, but it's funny because we call each other for things like basketball

Yes, yes. And if everybody's listening, that's an important thing to Mahesh and I

And something really important happened yesterday. And, you know, so we decided to contact each other about it

Yeah, so let's talk about basketball. And maybe some people are interested in learning

So if you don't know, you're watching the show. My son, he's 19

He played basketball in high school. This is his senior year. He's doing pretty good

So this reminds me, the biggest game is tomorrow, 7 p.m. in Malvern

You want to come? I'll see if – I don't know. The Sixers are playing at the same time

It might be tough. Sixers will continue playing. I want to see the beer as well

But this is going to be the biggest game. They're playing West Town. West Town is number one player in the country

Oh, really? Yes. so i'll uh i'll uh i'll chat with you later about that maybe maybe i will join you that would be

fun yeah and though you're still not in college yet no we have not been to college yet let's see

couple of uh coaches talking to him um all d1 so let's see what happens uh it's tough this year

because of portal so this year last year they've been rough because so many other people are

available senior guys so let's see how things go yeah but we will be picking up probably next couple

of months all right well don't wait too long yeah i mean it depends on the offers right if there's

no offer we can really pick that's where it is so do you uh do you want to tell the audience how

much money you spent helping train your son oh wow yeah that's a lot of money and thousands of

thousand dollars every year that's aside the money part the time it involves right so and every day

for last i would say uh 12 years 13 years it's like from three o'clock four o'clock to 10 o'clock

that's kind of big bunch of your time goes there it's a lot of work yeah and it's still you know

it's not guaranteed that you know you're gonna get in a good college we will see how things i'm

sure he'll get some kind of scholarship but yeah yeah so with that said uh you want to talk more

about this uh code camp you're doing bill right uh yeah we're we're gonna do another one uh uh we uh

i worked on a pilot program last year with uh and the year before with microsoft and

we were running philly.net using teams and it works fairly well yeah i know there's religious

wars out there and you know some people hate teams and some people think zoom is the future and

you know they're clearly wrong but uh but you know in the enterprise world you know teams is pretty

uh significant and you can run a nice conference there and uh we had uh i think we had four

concurrent sessions uh and we ran it for two days six hours each day so that would have been 48 total

sessions and they were all recorded. People can go back to them later and watch them. And it worked

out pretty well. So Teams is a good platform for that. And we're going to do that again

on March 4th. Everybody here is welcome to attend. It's worldwide. It's free. It's completely free

And because we don't do food and we don't rent a facility, we don't even have sponsors

It's just speakers. And if anybody's listening here and you're well-known in the world of .NET or SQL or Azure

by all means, come look for philly.net and meetup.com slash philly-net. and follow the links

and we're looking for speakers it three and a half weeks away and we would look forward to having you join us Mahesh is going to talk right

Yes. Excellent. I'm thinking maybe blockchain or startups or something. There you go

Blockchain may be good. Blockchain scares a lot of people because if you make a lot of money, you'll lose a lot of money

Yes. Yes. That's what we'll do probably. All right. So what are you thinking

You want to do speakers in person or everybody virtual? No, everybody's virtual

Okay. Wouldn't this be cool if we do a few people speakers in person

We could try and coordinate that. But let me think more on that

I'd want to ask the other leaders of Philly.net if they'd want to commit to that

Yeah. Talk to them. I mean, I think we will sponsor. We can talk offline on this, actually

but I'm interested in that doing at least speaker's dinner or something

maybe we want to have another event with more warning and do what you have in mind

don't think it's a valid idea a lot of people want to come

speak in person it doesn't have to be big and then it will make

a lot of speakers happy Yeah. And then, you know, you know, people like Infragistics Telerik might get involved and help us out on that

So, yeah. All right. Yeah. So that's what we're doing. Everybody working from home, you know, probably bought better cameras, better microphones

You know, you probably have a more interesting background than my kitchen ceiling right here

see this is I had to move my head isn't that a nice little light

there that has looks very fancy I put that up 30 years ago

I really like this fan here though that's over top of our kitchen island

and I have wait I figured out how to move my chair

what's that lady dancing there what's that Was that lady dancing there

Okay, well, that's important. My daughter is an award-winning artist. And that actually, she made that by hand, I think, when she was in 10th grade

Yeah. And she carved it out of wood. And it's actually made out of two kinds of wood

That's why it has two colors. Wow. And she won a prize that year

and she was always into making figures of women with nice fancy clothes on

and she became a professional costume designer. Oh, wow. And she does that for the theater

Nice, nice. That's great. Doesn't pay nearly as much as sitting home

doing C-sharp, but it's a fun thing to do. You should get into NFTs

That's the craze going on. I'm not a big fan, but it's craze going on

We need to explain. So I think I have a topic in mind already for the Code Camp

Okay, good. Unblocking blockchain work. That's catchy. Yes. All right

With that said, so everybody who's watching this, there's a Code Camp coming up

If you are a speaker in .NET, Blazor, you know, ASP.NET world

Azure, it includes anything Microsoft. just try go to this URL. Simon has posted in the chat

Apply there. It's only two weeks away, two or three weeks away

so it's coming fast. Apply fast. And then this is also going to be streamed live

free, so check out and put in your schedule. All right. Before that

anything else you want to plug in, Bill? And, you know, before we close this session down Well it really impressive the direction that Microsoft has taken with their development products

And, you know, the honest truth is you don't really need user groups to get involved anymore because it's all open source

It's on GitHub. If you go to the .NET Conf websites, you know, basically Microsoft puts on their own virtual conferences that sort of compete with what we used to do

And you can learn, you know, lots of fascinating new stuff. It's worth looking at if you're in a situation where you're using older Microsoft tools

you know have have a stern talk with the manager or the architect and it's like what are you

thinking you know just they they make so much improvement each year it's really worth taking

the effort to move things from you know visual studio 2017 up to 2022 and move up versions of

.net framework because you're going to get significant improvements and a lot more syntax flexibility

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's worth your time and effort. So what the direction that you said, what I like about Microsoft is rather than, you

know, everything else they're building, they're focusing on productivity. They're focusing on how to get your application done faster

So a lot of things they are giving you as a packages. That's one thing they are obviously and they're doing a lot of these releases much faster

and focusing on simple to learn, simple to write code, and also the performance

Yesterday I was watching a video of .NET 7. The improvement of Blazor in .NET 7 is amazing

So they're already way ahead of everybody else. I like this direction where they're going

They are. The other thing I would really encourage everyone on the call

is learn Azure. Yeah. Because, again, I work in Fortune 100 companies and everything today is about cloud

Everything. And, you know, even if your enterprise is still doing mostly on premise work, it's only the clock is ticking

It's only a matter of time before everything goes to the cloud. And you want to be one of those people that know how to help in that effort

Yeah. And you will be picked up because they're going to ask, hey, who does who knows

Azure. We're going to move to Azure. Yep. So learn app insights. Learn Azure Monitor. And if you don't know what those things are, go Google it. You can Bing it if you have to. But yeah, you want to find out, you know, how do you make things run fast in the cloud? How do you make them secure

that's how to save money and how to that's where the money is and and i i just uh recently read an

article mahesh yeah um and uh somebody uh basically did surveys of the top uh professions

yeah and uh you know other than being a doctor uh i think i think the top um salary was uh being a

enterprise architect. Cloud architect and future. Cloud architect, yep. And cloud security architects are actually hard to find

They are. Most of them have been locked up, I guess. Yep, yep. All right, so that gives me another topic

I'm going to submit two topics for CodeCamp. One will be on cost optimization in Azure

That's already talked, is ready for me. That's an excellent topic because people are absolutely clueless

what it takes to run a website. It's like, you know, I'm working with this small startup company

and they're thinking like, oh, $10 a month to run my website

It like no no If you want to run an enterprise website it hundreds of dollars per month Yeah especially if you have a SQL server in the background Absolutely And well can we go to AWS

It's cheaper, isn't it? And it's like, you know, lady, SQL server on AWS costs a lot more than it does on Azure

Yep. Do the math. We learn hard way. We learn hard way

So we migrated C Sharp Corner to Azure. And in the beginning, we were using SQL Server, you know, obviously got the enterprise and then migrate to developer for its costless portion

Now we are using SQL Web. That's saving us a lot of money

So it's just because we don't really need all the services enterprise

Right. So we cut our cost from, I say, annual, I don't know, some 30,000 to like a few thousand

Because it costs only $1,000 a year. and C Sharp Corner is running on just one SQL server

Sounds like a winner. Yep. All right. So, Bill, that was awesome

We learned a lot. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us this Friday, hanging out with us

We will do this again next Friday. Oh, right. Let's see if I can get that

What is that? MVP. There's my MVP jacket. MVP, yep. Remember when they used to give out jackets back in the day

Yes. I still have my jackets. i wear them they don't do that anymore so no uh so last question before go anybody who's watching

us if they want to become a microsoft mvp what do they have to do uh well um i think today

um you have to have a strong online presence uh you know mahesh is one of the champions of that

He was one of the pace setters, you know, one of the first ones to have an international website for these products

But you got to be with a strong online presence and provide something that helps other developers

Some people become MVPs because they're really good coders and they get involved in GitHub and they do open source pull requests

request and they actually make changes that the product team finds valuable. You don't become an

MVP because you're the best programmer at your company or even in your city. You become an MVP

because you help others in some fashion. And that's either by helping the product team

with code or by helping with training or, you know, websites like C-sharp corner where people

go to learn yeah that's what the mvp program's about yep writing articles sharing but i think

key is that you should always be sharing on newer technologies because microsoft picks mvps on those

only so if you go back to older technology they kind of don't care about yeah you don't want to be

the the smartest guy on visual basic these days yes you can be the you know beginner on you know

But I still want to be a Flutter MVP. I swear to God

Okay, go for it. I think Joe writes a lot of Flutter

Joe, good. All right. Yeah, all right. It was nice talking to you

I'll catch up. I'll probably give you a call later to discuss this other thing. All right, take care

All right. Thank you. Everybody, thank you so much. I will see you next Friday

Thank you