Rockin' The Code World with dotNetDave ft. Scott Hunter - Show 1

David, you are live

I'm live? Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Rocking the Code World with Donet Dave

I'm David McCarter, and I'm really happy you're all here for the inaugural show

I'm very, very excited to not only bring the show to you with C Sharp Corner, but I'm really, really excited about our very, very first guest, Scott Hunter, the big wig at Microsoft

And so with that, we had to rearrange the show a little bit

So we're just going to do two little things about the giveaways and then we're gonna go right into asking

Scott Hunter the hard questions about that net five so Again, I'm glad you're all here and we'll talk more about what the show is and what our plans are in the second half of the hour

And my slide deck isn't working awesome Oh, there we go. Sorry, I had clapping

All right, so every episode of the show, I'm going to give away some really cool stuff

Some things will change, but some things will be pretty the same. So every week, we're going to give away a $50 Amazon gift card

to anybody on the show. We're going to give away C Sharp Corner swag, T-shirts, backpacks

whatever they want to give to a lucky person every week. I'm going to give away some Donna Dave Donna Tips swag

Unfortunately, it's only U.S. residents because it does cost too much money to send it anywhere else

Until we get a sponsor. And everybody on the show today will get a free copy

of my favorite code refactoring tool, Code Rush from DevExpress. So, but you have to stay till the end

All right. So how do you win? Well, you've got to pay attention and type fast

Okay. And Simon will pick the winner and splash it up on the screen for everybody

All right. So let's do the very, very first giveaway of the very first show

And this giveaway is for C Sharp Corner Gifts. And I'm not going to leave this up long

So read fast. Ready? So to win, the first person that answers this question in the chat will win the C-sharp corner gifts

How many times have I been to India to speak at the C-sharp corner conference

There's me rocking out. I love playing guitar in front of my fans like us in the C-sharp corner

So there you go. First one that knows that and puts it in the chat wins

All right. I'm going to introduce our very special guest, Scott Hunter, and he's going to come on and answer your questions from his car

It's going to be fun. So before that, I've known Scott for six years

And the reason is because, come on. well there was supposed to be a video playing but anyway scott uh i was so happy i got scott to come

down to my uh retirement party from the san diego dunnet uh developers group uh he came down we had

an awesome time we had band uh uh which i was in and we had a great time and that's when i got to

meet and get to know Scott. And I'm really glad that I do know him. So, and that was my 20-year

retirement party. And now it's run by one of my friends here in San Diego. So, let's get Scott on

Scott Hunter is responsible for Microsoft's .NET platform, which includes the .NET framework

.NET core, ASP.NET, any framework, .NET tools, web tools, and managed languages

C Sharp, F Sharp, and VB. Prior to leading the .NET platform, Hunter helped the Azure Developer Experience Team

to build Azure SDKs, app service tooling, Azure Redis, Cache, Azure API Management

ASP.NET, any framework, and web tooling. I guess you guys can tell I didn't read this prior to this

In his spare time, he loves hiking the mountains in Washington State and around the world

So with that, Scott, welcome to the show. Hey, Dave. Great to be here. Great to be on your first episode from my car

I know. I actually can't see you live because I have to watch the published one

So how's it going? It's going great. I mean, it feels crazy

We're just a little over a month away from shipping .NET 5 on November 10th

So we're in that crazy shutdown phase and, you know, all of us are panicking as we look at the number of bugs we have left and we're trying to fight that bug countdown to RTM

But I know we'll make it. I know you will. You do

You've got a really good cadence now with these yearly major updates

And I think you guys have been doing a great job to me

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So, everybody, please, please type your questions into the chat, and Simon will flash them up on the screen for us

And so, Scott, what's like the first question I have is just what's like the big deal with .NET 5

The big deal with .NET 5 is actually not going to actually ship in .NET 5

The real journey that we want our customers to realize is that over the time, this is one of the jokes I always like to make is we have too many .NETs at Microsoft

We have .NET Framework, we have Xamarin, we have .NET Core. We really want to get back to having a single .NET again

And so the reason that .NET 5 is called .NET 5 and .NET Core 4 is because we're trying to signal that we're trying to go back to a single brand

And so once we get to .NET 6, we will bring all the Xamarin workloads directly into .NET as well

And so at that point, we'll have a single unified stack. But that said, we did a bunch of unification in .NET 5 as well

So if you wrote a Blazor app today on .NET Core 3.1, you're actually using the mono BCL

If you write a Blazor app on .NET 5, you're using the .NET Core BCL

And so you know and we do that same thing for the Xamarin stack in the 6 But our real goal is to try to end the confusion as are you on core Are you on framework What the newest What can you build We really want our customers to be on the new tech

And so .NET 5 is really a continuation of .NET Core, dropping the core brand

And so moving forward, there's just .NET 5, .NET 6, .NET 7

So that's, you know, it's not a technical thing, but it is a big messaging and marketing kind of thing to make our platform simpler

and we call it unifying the stack. Well, you know, I personally, as a speaker and a teacher and a writer

I'm really glad you're doing it because it's been horribly even frustrating for me

to try to explain all the different things to, you know, somebody new to .NET

or, you know, coming to my conference sessions. And then if you, you know, if I blurt out the word .NET standard

they have no idea what I'm talking about, you know. So I'm really glad you're bringing it all back into one ecosystem

And that's, quite frankly, why, you know, in my almost my entire programming career, I've loved a Visual Studio because it's all just one ecosystem

You know, I don't need anything else hardly, but Visual Studio. So. Yeah, it's

it is a unique challenge, actually. Even inside of Microsoft, we have people that are confused about the core versus the framework versus all those things

So, you know, I do think the unification is going to be a big, big part of our stack

And, you know, you mentioned .NET Standard, which is interesting because .NET Standard, we announced that in 2016, actually

And one of the biggest challenges we have with .NET Dave, all up, is people don't know

For whatever reason, our customers always seem to be like five years behind us. Meaning that it's still insane to this day the number of times that I go talk to a customer and they're like

Well, Scott, you're on a Mac. How does .NET run on a Mac? we've been cross-platform since 2016

we've been open source since 2014 we like to call this the perception problems that we have in .NET

which is we're still seen as the Windows-centric 2002 release and it'll take us more time to go and finish this journey of letting everybody know

that we actually are totally free, you don't have to pay for it It runs on Windows, Mac, Linux, ARM32, ARM64, and it's open source

And you can use CLI with your editor of choice, or you can use Visual Studio, like you mentioned before

But that really is the message that we still need to keep pounding out to our customers so they all know where we are today

Yeah, and I think, you know, when you were talking about that, it kind of reminded me of, you know, trying to explain things kind of like Azure, you know, what does Azure do

What can it do? Where does it run? How does it run? You know, and then .NET is kind of the same thing, you know, where I can really use one thing for everything, you know, and that's one thing I think I really liked about the direction with Microsoft for a while now

is that unlike maybe some other companies, you embrace other languages and stacks and things like that

and bring them into your ecosystem so everybody can use it as opposed to having to jump out

and doing it in a completely different language or something like that. Yeah, this might surprise people, but when you read my bio, I've been doing .NET at Microsoft since 2007. and

this might be shocking to some people but I also my team also is responsible for building Java

Really? I didn't know that As you mentioned, you know, if you look

at DevDiv, we work on Python we work on Node, we work on

Java, we work on .NET we work in a variety of languages while I think .NET is the most

productive platform the reality is there's customers on a variety of platforms

and that's also another part of our journey with .NET is a lot of people ask me

Scott, why didn't you bring WCF, Windows Communication Foundation, to .NET Core

slash .NET 5? Well, that's really Windows-centric tech. And moving forward, we don't want

to be so Windows-centric. And so, .NET Core 3.0 and 3.1 shipped with support for gRPC

and gRPC is a it's very similar to WCF it's tightly bound contracts

you define the types and stuff go into your methods you call your methods and it

just feels kind of seamless but we chose that over bringing full WCF in because

gRPC is very cross platform it works on Go it works on Rust, it works on Java

it works on a variety of languages and in the core world

what we kind of know is we don't assume any company is just a .NET only shop

I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of those too, but a lot of companies have a mix of Java, Node, .NET

And our job is to make sure that .NET interoperates really well across those

And so, gRPC is a WCF style way of doing that across all the languages

And then even REST. We've been shipping REST and .NET forever. but I've been really happy with the work we've done in .NET Core 3 and .NET 5 especially

We're trying to take our REST technologies and make the tooling as good as the WCF tooling was

So now in .NET 5, if you build a web API, we actually inject OpenAPI through a package called Swashbuckle into all of the API projects

and what that does that open API is a spec called Swagger

that shows the definition of your API and from that I can provide rich tooling

that is generating a client automatically for you. That was like the

number one most requested feature for web APIs forever for us. Me too

I could write my code and then I would just go create another project and say

reference that thing and it would do all the hook up for me automatically and write all the logic

We have all that in web APIs now. So if you build a web API in .NET Core 3.1 or .NET 5

especially .NET 5 because the open API is on by default, in .NET Core 3.1, you would have to install the Swashbuckle

or NSWAG package yourself. You can then create a WinForm project or a Blazor project

or a console project. Right-click on the project, say Add, go to connected services, select, you know, the web API

point it to your web API and we'll generate the entire client for you to make it

easy to call an API. I'm so happy. Which, you know, it seems simple, but, but it's, it's funny

You look at the code we generate and you like crap I don want to write any of that Sure Yeah Yeah And we and that a lot of work for developers You know I you know the way I develop you know and the way I segment things out in my projects it easier to do to kind of get around those

The limitation we've had that, you know, the auto generated proxy classes like you used to have in WCF

And so I've had to kind of handhold people across the process on how to make that easier

But this is better, you know, because now you have, you know, I guess, are they just kind of like the proxy classes, the proxy classes that were created by WCF, sort of

Sort of, yes. But we do give you a bunch of new features

Because you're using the newer HTTP client, you can actually inject your own HTTP client into the thing that we generate for you, which means you can take your own retry policies and stuff like that without having to go touch the code, which is an important part of that

And they are generated at build time, which means if the definition changes, all it takes is a recompile of the project and we'll change the proxies on the fly

while the WCS work would require you to go and, you know

and probably delete the reference and read the reference. We may, you know, once again, it's 2020

We're better than that. And so now we can make those things actually just more dynamic

and more compilation based. So it's easier to keep things in sync than it was before in the past with WCS

That's, yeah, I'm really happy to hear. And you've cleared up a lot of my confusion even, you know, with, you know

because I, you know, every time I started working on an API, you know

I go, why, where's WCF? You know, and it's not necessarily because of the endpoints

it's because of the flexibility, you know, of WCF that, you know, that

that came, you know, when that came out and what, Donate 2 or 3, Donate 3, wasn't it

It was WCF. That's one of those weird things that we did

That was the .NET 3, which was a kind of a weird release

in that it was kind of like an add-on to the existing .NET 2 at the time

Yeah. And it wasn't really baked all the way in the platform until .NET 3.5

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you've already answered one of my questions that I had written down

pre-written down for you. So here's another one that, because I'm actually working and thinking about this right now

so I thought I'd ask the expert. And so it's .NET supported with the older frameworks like the CLR

and how. Is .NET supported with a seal? Help me a little bit

What exactly are you asking? Well, what I'm asking is if some people start writing

new code in .NET 5 or 6 or whatever and they still have

for me, I still have a WinForm app in .NET 4 or something

Can I still connect to that and maybe vice versa? So is the question more of, are we still supporting .NET Framework 4.8 and above

No, no, no. The question is, from .NET 4.6, can I call .NET 5 DLLs

Yes, that's a great question. So it's a very common scenario for our customers

I mean, the reality is, you know, .NET Framework shipped in 2002. And the first .NET Core shipped in 2016

So obviously there's 14 years of code that's been created before there ever was a .NET Core

And that's where the question you asked before about .NET Standard, what is .NET Standard

And so we recognize as a team, as we went on the .NET Core journey, and for folks that don't know

the reason that there even was a .NET Core was because we realized the only way to take .NET into the future

was to break away from the past a little bit, and to have a new platform that ran on Windows, Mac, and Linux

and it was fully open source. But obviously, we know our customers have lots of old code

And so there's a couple of ways you can do this. First off, there's something called .NET Standard

Still super important today. And .NET Standard is hard to describe because it's not a physical thing

What .NET Standard really is, is a list of methods and functions and objects that Emo Landworth and folks on my team put together

It's all the APIs that exist on .NET Framework and Mono. It's kind of the intersection of the APIs between Mono and .NET Framework

And so what it is, is if your code is .NET Standard compliant, meaning you can actually make this in Visual Studio

You can create a .NET standard class library. Any code inside of that works across all the stacks

So if you write a library and make it .NET standard compliance

well, it runs on Xamarin. It works on .NET Framework. It works on .NET Core

Now, Dave might have been asking a more nuanced question. Imagine the case of you wrote some code

or you used a library in .NET Framework, say, in 2010. You don't have the source code for it

Yeah. If you have that library and all the APIs in that library exist in .NET Core or .NET 5, you can actually use it without recompiling it at all

.NET still is just .NET, meaning that all we do is have some tech in .NET that knows how to read what's called IL

IL is the tech that when you compile a class library, it's compiled into IL

as long as all the APIs that library uses exist in .NET Core slash 5

they'll work without recompile. So we don't require you to recompile anything. So two things that I think are important to think here is

number one is, if you want to write code that you want to share across all the .NETs

you really want to make it .NET standard compliant code. And there's a class library type in .NET in Visual Studio for exactly that

If you are going to port something to .NET Core slash .NET 5

and you don't have the code for it, just reference it and try it

It will likely work. I had built a couple of years ago. I actually took a zip library

that hadn't been updated since like 2010. And it just loads and works just fine

And in fact, if you look at nougat.org, I believe now we're up to around 75 or 80

of all the packages there work on .NET Core now. and that's because we've added enough APIs back

over the journey from .NET Core 1 to 3. You know, we added a ton of APIs back

as we listened and watched to see what customers wanted to do

Yeah. That sounds really awesome, to tell you the truth. I know we just..

Are there any questions yet from the audience? So, I actually am looking at some of the questions right now, Dave. Yeah

One of them is what is your story How did you get into Microsoft I happy to answer that Okay Yeah

So I used to live in California, actually not far from where Dave is today

I was up in Orange County. Oddly enough, Microsoft is not something that I actually thought of as a place I wanted to go

because at the time that I was working down in Orange County

Microsoft was this really closed-source, Windows-centric company. And then secondly, I started reading this guy's blog

His name was Scott Guthrie. And he was very progressive. And the way he talked about .NET, the way he was customer-driven

the feedback and the talks about being very open about how .NET was built and stuff like that

interested me in Microsoft. And this is a funny story, actually. So I actually

go and find, go to the job site at Microsoft. I apply and I show up for an interview and I

totally tanked my first interview at Microsoft. So I what happened was I was working for a company in Orange County

called Starbase and we built technology that was very similar to Team Foundation Server

And when I applied to Microsoft I said I want to work on C Sharp as the hat says

And I show up and because they looked at my history I was suddenly doing a loop

an interview loop with the TFS team. And I'm like, I remember on my second interview

I'm like, why are you asking all these source control questions? And so it did not go well

because that was not what I wanted to work on. And so that failed

I applied again about a year later. And this time when I talked to the recruiter

I said, I want to work for the .NET team, whether it's ASP.NET, C-sharp, whatever

I said, if you're going to have me interview somebody else, do not bring me up. and uh and so i i joined in 07 um that's that loop and uh it was it was an interesting time because

uh scott hanselman who i think most people would probably know as well he joined two months after

i joined um and phil hack um who was also one of the big people that worked on both nuget and mbc

uh joined as well and so um phil hack and scott hanselman and i kind of grew up together

and Microsoft. Well, you know, as you were talking about Scott Guthrie

if you can get him on my show, that would be freaking awesome

I would love to talk to him one-on-one. That'd be a lot of fun

So which question do you want to... Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's there on the screen

Yeah, it's there on the screen. You can read the question, yeah. Yeah, will there be an easier recommended path

to migrate ASP.NET 4 to .NET 5? That was actually one of my questions

How is the migration path for the older code to the new .NET 5

Moving from, you know, any .NET core to .NET 5 will be pretty easy

Moving from .NET framework to .NET 5 is a little more challenging

But we're working on that, and I think in the .NET 6 wave, you're going to see a lot of work there

For people that don't know, there's a tool called TryConvert. If you just Google TryConvert.net

It looks like Dave's trying right now. No, I'm writing it down

TryConvert, I'm going to do it right now. TryConvert is a GitHub

If I can stick it in the chat, I'll stick it in the chat here real quick. Okay

What TriConvert does, TriConvert, just Google it in GitHub

It's a project we wrote that will actually take a older.NET project and convert

the project file to the new project. For folks that don't know

That's another big investment we made along the path from .NET Framework to .NET Core

It used to be that our project files were just piles of GUIDs and piles of unhuman-evable

And so one of our goals in the .NET Core journey was to make those files human-evable

and so what it will do is it will take an older project

and convert the project file to a modern project file modern project

project file format so if you want to move an application probably the first thing you want to do is

run that tool on it and then kind of press compile until you get

things working again if you're moving from like ASP.NET to .NET Core, there's two paths

If you have an ASP.NET Web API project or an ASP.NET MVC project

they will move actually pretty easily. For the most part, what I would actually do

if you're moving one of those types of projects is I would create a brand new ASP.NET MVC project

and then I would take the controllers, whether it's Web API or MVC

and I would basically paste them into the controller folder and paste the views into the view folder

and then just compile until it works again. That's not a huge leap

If you're moving from web forms, web forms is one of the things that we did not bring forward

in the .NET Core world. But there's a better tech that actually mimics it quite closely

and that is Blazor. So Blazor has a similar component model that Webforms had, meaning that if you go look, you know, Telerik, DevExpress, Syncfusion, you know, all the people that build, you know, cool tools for .NET, they all have controls for Blazor, just like they have controls for Webforms

forms. Jeff Fritz on my team, if you just Google Jeff Fritz, you know, Blazor to web forms or web

forms to Blazor, he has built a library of Blazor components that have the same names as the

components in web forms. Really? I didn't know he did that. That wants to do that, to look at that. And it means that your markup is a little different

but the coding practices are very, very similar. And so that's the best way to move an ASP.NET project

into the new world. Well, quite frankly, moving my code, except for WinForms to .NET standard, .NET Core

for me personally, wasn't really that hard. I just moved the class files over to the new project

changed a couple of things and I was up and running. So I never had a huge problem moving except for WinForms

I still have one app left in WinForms. And so I, you know, compare that to, you know, 18 years ago

you know, the migration story, I think, at Microsoft, in the .NET world, at least, is a lot better than it used to be, for sure

Yeah, listen to this. So Jeffers' project, which is called Blazor Webform Component

webforms components. He has add rotator, button, hidden field, hyperlink, image, image button

label link button, literal, data list, forms view, grid view, list view, repeater, custom validator

regular expression validator, required field validator, validation summary, tree view. He's got

23 of these things already ported over, and we add more every day to make that webform

migration to Blazor easier. And then the other benefit you get out of that is

webform-based applications or post-back-based applications, which means every time you take an action on the page

we refresh the entire web page. The cool thing about using GIF versus tech is

Blazor apps are all spa apps, which means the page never redraws

And so it makes it easy to port a webform application, and then the application becomes a more modern feeling application

And that's another cool piece of the .NET Core 3.1 slash 5.0 tech as well

One of the most exciting things for us is we find that a lot of folks want to write desktop applications

but they want to build them with web tech. And they want to do that because it works on Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10, version, works on a Mac. Right

So, you know, with Blazor, another cool feature of Blazor is at creation time, you can click

a button and call it make it a PWA. That's a progressive web application

And if you load a progressive web application into a browser, whether it's Chrome or Edge

or Safari or Firefox, all of those will have an option somewhere in the Chrome of the app

where you can actually click a button and make that application a desktop app

And so you can build a Blazor application today, check that box, and then suddenly it runs as a native app on your desktop, which is a really cool piece of tech

Yeah, I'm still trying to get up to speed with Blazor. But, you know, one thing that because I have been doing talks on Blazor for a couple of years now

And, you know, one thing that people cautiously ask me is, you know, so how long is Blazor going to last before it's killed

or should I look at Blazor, right? And my answer is, yes, look at Blazor

because I know of all the work that you and Jeff and Carl Franklin and all you people are putting into

and Michael Washington and making sure that all this stuff becomes the new way of doing things

Actually, that's one of the biggest fears of, if you're using Microsoft tech

one of your biggest fears probably is, oh my God, I'm afraid to go build an app on some new UI stack

because we've killed a bunch of them in the past. Light switch. The primary one

Not light switch. What was that called? Your flash? Silverlight. Yeah. Yes

Silverlight's the big one. Blazor won't go down that path because Blazor is completely built on web standards

Silverlight really died, you know, because in the modern world, if you cannot run those applications on your smartphone

then they don't make sense. And smartphones and browsers in general, after December of this year

are not going to run plugins at all. It used to be that, you know, Silverlight was a plugin

Flash was a plugin. That tech's all being retired, and that's because primarily it didn't work on smartphones

Android had Flash running on smartphones for a small point of time

But if you ran a flash game on an Android phone, it would run for about 10 minutes before the battery of your phone died

And so the tech doesn't make sense. But Blazor is just web tech. And so you're going to see us do even crazier things with Blazor

There's an awesome project out there, if you just Google it, Blazor Mobile Bindings

And what Blazor Mobile Bindings does is it lets you create what we call hybrid applications

And a hybrid application is an app that's both native and web tech. And so a Blazor mobile binding application, you can put Xamarin controls inside of your Blazor application

Wow. So imagine having some web and then having some native Blazor, I mean, native Xamarin controls in there as well

And that application, because the Blazor controls, one of the cool things about Blazor controls is they run on all the operating systems

so I can build an app that has both got Blazor inside of it

and has Xamarin controls inside of it and can run on iOS, Android, Mac, and Windows

Wow. And that, I think, is really the future of where Blazor is going to go next is

hey, we've got the web-only thing going really, really well, but we know some folks, like if you're running Slack or you're running Teams

or you're running Dropbox or you're running Spotify, those are all actually web apps

but they run inside of what's called the Electron shell. which enables them to have access to native parts of your operating system

We want to take Blazor to that same place where you can build a Blazor app

that runs in that kind of Blazor mobile binding model where it's a web app

but it can run inside of a frame or a shell on any of the OS platforms

And so I don't think worrying about Blazor dying, it will never happen because it's web tech

But we'll take it beyond that to letting you run Blazor in more places

Wow. My mind was just blown. And that's hard to do with me

Blown in a good way. Well, you have to go, don't you

I got two or three more minutes. Okay. So let's get off of, if we just have a couple minutes, let's talk about you

So what's up with you? What do you like to, so I figured out a question to ask you

So once .NET ships, what's the first thing you're going to do for fun

So for me, my fun is primarily hiking big mountains. So folks probably don't know it, but in 2018, I took my youngest daughter and we went to Africa and we climbed Mount Kilimanjaro

Wow. So that's a 20,000 foot mountain. It took us about seven days to go up and down

and it was probably the most, it was the coolest thing I've ever done with my kids

Meaning that in the world we all live in today, we are so inundated with technology

My kids are connected to smartphones all the time. They TikToking or they Instagramming or they Snapchatting or whatever And so you never feel like you have that really tight bond When you go climb a big mountain like that with your kid there was no internet for seven days

I know. And so I got to hang out on a mountain with my daughter for seven days with just us

And it was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. And I plan to go back and do it again

Once COVID's all passed, my older daughter, who passed on the trip

after she heard my younger daughter talk about the trip, she wants to do it too

And so I'm going to go back to Kilimanjaro with both my daughters and climb that again. I won't do that right after

we ship that net five. But I love hiking. I love snow. We're supposed to have a good

winter in Washington State this year. And so if the weather is right

I will probably go and snowshoe. I've done that. your uh yeah well it sounds like you went to a much better part of africa than i did

i was at i was in africa for i think like five torturous days when i was in the navy but

uh that sounds like a lot more fun than what i saw i went on a safari that was cool but uh

um i i missed the safari part of it um because i i we were already gone for a week it was summer

and it was just me and my youngest daughter. We wanted to get back to the rest of my family

And so we didn't get to do the safari, but Africa was amazing

Kilimanjaro was super, we were in Tanzania is where we started at before we went up the mountain

The people were amazing. The culture was amazing. And this will sound crazy to some people

but we had about 20 people that helped us up the mountain

You can't go con con con zero by yourself. You have to actually do it with some guides

And many of us still text those guides because, you know, they watch us and our lives for seven days

And that's a bond you can't forget. And so it's kind of fun that we still talk to all those guides

And hopefully I'm going to go back to the same crew again. Oh, that'd be awesome

That sounds like fun. I hope you post a lot of pictures from that

I'd love to see them, especially being a photographer. I would love to see the pictures from there

Cool. Well, thanks for having me today, Dave. I really appreciate it. And I will promote the show

Thank you very much. Talk to Scott. Well, Scott, I couldn't ask for a better first guest on my new show

So I really, really appreciate you taking the time out for us for 35 minutes or so

And I'm really glad you made the show. And for being on the show, you're going to get a commemorative, one-of-a-kind T-shirt from C Sharp Corner, Rockin' the Code, the Donnet Dave T-shirt that only guests get

And maybe they'll get me one. So thank you very much, Scott. Thank you

Have a great day. See you. So, everybody, that's Scott Hunter. I hope you liked it

I'm sorry he had to go early. He's probably working on .NET 5, so I think that's a good tradeoff

So is Mahesh here? Is Mahesh? Yeah. Hey, Dave, I'm back. What's going on

Hey, nicely done. That was great. I was just, you know, when Scott was talking

I was sitting and trying to, you know, listen and also think about it

And I was going, you know, I think I learned more in that 35 minutes than any guests I've ever had on my podcast or anything

I love all you guys that were on my podcast. But, you know, talking to the man, Scott Hunter, I thought was pretty awesome

Agreed. Because, you know, he's very technical and he's hands on with everything

And he's the one leading the charge in .NET. And I know there's a lot of guys still have questions

So maybe, you know, you may want to bring him back at some point. There's a lot of questions in the .NET file

So, you know, a lot of guys are still asking. So, again, very, you know, sorry to hear about, you know, CEO disappointed

But, again, he had limited time. And, you know, I think you're grateful that at least he still made his commitment

Yes. I would love to have him back when he gets back from his trip from Africa

showing some pictures and stuff. But, you know, the one thing that he had to go, but the one thing I wanted to mention to him, and he's probably not going to hear this, is that there's one thing he made me feel really good about

And he said that he tanked his first interview at Microsoft. And I almost blurted out, well, I've tanked every interview at Microsoft

So I think I've been interviewed by Microsoft like three times with the last time last year, actually, and I've tanked everyone

So I'm glad I'm not the only one. Yeah, it happens. It happens

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about the show. And then we can ask some, you know, we can talk to audience, reply some non-technical .NET 5 questions

Okay. Let me share my slides again, Simon. So we can kind of go over some notes I made on PowerPoint decks

And then we can talk about it. Is that cool? yeah that's good definitely okay and then also in the slides we have the remainder of the uh

prize giveaway questions and so that should be fun for everybody to to to uh

learn something oh there's the video that didn't play so this is the video that from my uh

retirement party um uh uh six years ago when scott hunter came and and uh i was so happy he

came down and and uh there he is there's that's when i got to meet him he's a awesome guy um so

so oh a new giveaway all right so ready so for this giveaway i'm going to uh give away a copy of

one of my books uh done that uh tip sticker uh magnet and since these are too small for me

I'll send you a C-sharp corner face mask. So, and whatever else I have laying around here

because I have a lot of stuff I couldn't give away this year. So here's the question

What was the name of the podcast that I hosted with my best friend, Woody Pughett

that we ran for about a year? So that's the question. So the first person

please try to be from the United States. I'm sorry. I can't afford $50 to ship this outside of the country

So the first person that enters that, I'll send that to you this week, okay

So I'll skip this. Nothing super big happened this week except for Ignite

So I want to welcome everybody to the first show. I kind of said that at the beginning I really really glad everybody here And I really glad to everybody who going to be watching this later And I hope that you know along with Mahesh and the excellent team at C Sharp Corner

we can keep this going for as long as you guys want. And because it's not, you know, I'm not going anywhere

So, you know, this show is for you. I really want to hammer home that point that, yeah, we're going to interview, you know

leaders from the tech world and we're going to have some fun and, and some other things. But you know, this show is really for you. And you know

I, so because of that, I really need your feedback. So if you don't want to put it in the chat well, better yet

actually just email it to me and I'll work on it and see if we can work it

into a show. But this show is for you. If you have suggestions on topics you want to have discussed

if you have suggestions on guests that you want me to get on the show

I can get people on the show. I've been around this world for a long time

and I'm pretty good at that usually. And also I'm going to maybe do some weekly segments

I'm going to do the first one this week. And if you like that one or don't, let me know

If you have ideas for segments, let me know. So please, please, please email me

Of course, the show is every Saturday at 10 a.m. my time, unless I'm on vacation, I guess

So some of the things that I have planned is, of course, interview with top leading leaders in our industry, which we did today, which was freaking awesome, if you ask me

Next week, we'll do some more tech news stuff. I had some, I didn't have enough time working on that this week

And the first segment I'm going to do this week is something that I really like talking about

It's a subject called dogfooding. I've known for a long time. And so that'll be the first weekly segment for this week and more to come

So what do you think, Mahesh? I think that was great. It's a good idea

I mean, this whole thing, having a scar hunter was great. And just see how Ugo now looks like

keep bringing more and more of these leaders, which is getting everybody excited

Yeah. And the other thing, and I guess this is part of my personality

is I don't want to do a normal show. I want to do something that's fun and kind of light

and just have fun. And especially if it's on the weekend, why not have some fun

And, you know, you can tell your loved ones you have to hide away for an hour

So, yeah, I'm hiding right now. It's a good excuse. It's like, you know, I'm sure you've seen my tweets that, you know, I encourage people to donate blood

And whenever I get back from the blood bank, you know, because I donate every month

And when I get back from blood bank, you know, I always tweet, hey, guys, you want to get out of doing yard work

Go donate blood because now you can't do it for 24 hours. So any more thoughts from you before we go into the first segment

No, get started. I think that's good to go. You're good to go. And I think I don't know when you probably want to remind people how they're going to win prize

when you're going to announce the winners one more time. Well, Stephen, if you can flash the winners up

That would be great. And so they can, you know, have their name memorialized in our first show or all our shows, I guess

That would be awesome. Because we don't want people to think we're not giving away

Because I need to get this. Yeah. Do you see the screen? It looks like there's a winner right there

I don't see. Oh, I can't see you live. I have to look at the delay

You should also be able to see on your screen live. I'm not sure how you're using

Are you in the streamer? Yeah, we'll take care of that later

Okay, we'll figure out. I don't want to stop the show for that. So one of the segments that we did every week on the podcast that I had with my friend Woody Pughett was dogfooding

And I've known about dogfooding for as long as I can remember

And it's not about dogs. It's not about food either. It's basically about eating your own software

or using your own software. And that's really the big thing. And to talk about that

I firmly believe that if possible, if the people working on the software

everybody involved in working on the software, or even in the entire company

if they are actually using that software, the company has a vested interest in making that better

And I've seen, And, you know, unfortunately, I don't see a lot of companies doing this very well

And I've seen some companies do it really well. And, you know, and so one of the ways I use dogfooding actually in coding is so you all know I'm a Microsoft MVP

And every year, except for this year, you know, we go to Microsoft for a week and we learn all this stuff, you know, that's coming out the next couple of years that we're not allowed to talk about

And but one of the things that, you know, that I really work on every year when I go up there because I am a writer and a speaker and it used to be a teacher is I actually ask people around Microsoft on the teams if they're actually using the framework they've released

Right. So the first framework that always popped in my mind when I talk about this is entity framework, you know, because people are very nervous about it

in the beginning. It wasn't awesome, their first version, but now it's awesome. But that year

I was at Microsoft and I was asking, are you guys using any of the framework? Are you using this

And they said, yes. And I go, okay, I'm going to start writing about it and teaching about it

because now I know you're going to keep it around for a while unless it goes the way of

civil rights. So anyway, so for those of you who don't know what dog fooding is

that's why I'm spending a little more time this week on it. And of course, this is a great way

for your organization to test everything before it goes on in the real world. You know, I know

people right now that don't test unless it's on production. And that's insane if you ask me. But

Anyway, so, and also it demonstrates a confidence in the developer's own products, right

And I think the segment I'm going to do next week is on Amazon Fire TV, because that thing just drives me nuts

And, you know, I tweeted about it once, and I got a lot of feedback of other people feeling the same way

And I go, oh, great. It's not me. It does suck, you know, so I think that's what I'm going to do next week

But that you know takes a little time with setting up the recording and everything for that So before we get into the actual dogfooding segment because I have a video that I going to show you

I'm going to give away the $50 Amazon gift card. So everybody, are you at your keyboards

Ready? Ready? Ready? how many years did I run the SanDiego.net Visual Basic.net user group

Or the SanDiego Visual Basic.net user group? I've already mentioned it a couple times, and you saw it on the video

So there you go. First one answers it, wins 50 bucks on Amazon

I kind of need that. So the first dogfooding I'm going to do is something I've saved

I actually, this is a couple months old from a new add-in, if you guys haven't used it, called Grammarly

And as far as, you know, checking for grammar in your Word documents, websites, you know, basically a lot of different services, even PowerPoint now

Grammarly is really good at checking that kind of stuff. And it's actually helped me sound better without paying an editor

And so I think their engine works really well. I think it's much better than anything that's in Office

And actually, if anybody on the Office team is listening, why don't you guys just buy Grammarly

Yeah, I think that would be great. so but um the grammarly add-ins uh especially to word uh is pretty dismal and it continuously

frustrates me when i'm working on uh my book or uh articles for c-sharp corner so

so that's what it does um i like it much better uh and the other thing i discovered this week

because I couldn't get Grammarly to freaking work. And so I went back to Word

and then Word started checking all my code in my article. I'm going, why are you checking my code

And Grammarly doesn't check your code, I found out, which is awesome

And I don't know if that's a setting. I can't find it, but it doesn't check code for some reason

So magic going on there, right? So anyway, I'm gonna play the video

of just some of the frustrations I'm finding in Word. and we'll talk a little bit about that after the video

So here's an example where I'm trying to fix the word remotely

too remotely, and I have to click it, click it, click it

Finally, after seven times, it works, right? Now, if I want to delete their thing that they're telling me

click, click, click, click, click, click, click. I'm trying to make sound effects. Nine times

It took me nine times before it deleted it. And this one is showing, do you want to change done

to is done? Where's the cursor? Where is it? I don't see it. Right. And so not only if you actually

can see the cursor. It's hard to find. So Grammarly, why don't you just highlight the text

in Word that you're telling me about? Why do I have to spend a lot of time searching around my

document to where it is? All right. So there's other issues. So those are just some I've recorded

I think, when I was working on an article or a book. And so Grammarly, your add-ins

especially for Word need a lot of work. And I think you need to go back to the drawing board, quite frankly

And it completely does not work in the new crappy interface that WordPress just released

So fix that too, please. So anyway, so that's enough complaining about Grammarly

Any comments? Yeah, no, back to dog fooding, right? So, you know, obviously our guys, C Sharp Corner team, they're developing the C Sharp Corner platform

I always tell them, guys, you got to use your own platform, but they don't

You know, I'm finding sometimes these little errors and I just keep telling them

It's just the mindset that, you know, how sometimes you are in the kitchen and you are cooking

You don't really like your food because you've been cooking it so long. Yeah

So it's kind of hard, but I still want guys, our C Sharp Corner dev team to go and use the website every day because that's how you get better because you become your own user, right

If you become a user of your own application, that's how you build better software

Yeah, yeah. And that actually reminded me of something a company I've recently worked at did that I thought was no one's ever done to me before when I first started working at a company

And so a couple of years ago, I was working for a company that makes these really high, high end exercise bikes that basically has a game engine in front of you and you can play games and watch live videos

And it's kind of like the Peloton on steroids. Yeah. Right. And I think it is much better than the Peloton any day of the week

But so every day when I walked in, you know, they we had three of the bikes, three or four of the bikes there that we used for testing, you know

And but the first day I started, you know, I said, hey, can you guys show me, you know, the bike

Because that's not that wasn't the product I was working on. And they said, no

And I go, why? You know? And they said, well, because they were working on a brand new version, right

And they actually hired two people from Disney to work on it

And they said, and this kind of goes back to what you were saying

The problem that we have testing our own stuff, we are the worst testers ever of our own stuff, right

Because we know how it works, right? And we're used to it. We've probably been using it for months and months and months

And so we know how it works, right? And so we come blind to how other people see it, you know

And like back in the day, I used to always say, I can instantly tell if a developer designed a program

because it looks horrible, right? and um so uh so what they wanted was a fresh pair of eyes so they said dave until we get the new one

done you know the new machine in and the new software loaded and all this stuff we don't want

you looking at it or even using it right because one of my plans yeah one of my plans was to

exercise on the bike every day you know yeah but they wouldn't let me and so they did that they

brought me to the bike they kind of gave me an overview of how it worked and then they let me

and they try to figure it out. And it was really helpful for them, I think

Really, really wish more companies. Yeah. So any other thoughts about that

Because we're a little over. No, that was good. I like that every episode, you're going to have one of these topics

Yeah. Dog fooding was important next year. I think this is a great idea. Okay, great

So the last prize giveaway. Ready? And this one's easy because you don't need to answer anything

So everybody watching the show right now gets a free copy of CodeRush from DevExpress

DevExpress, CodeRush is a refactoring tool. It's been around since pretty much the beginning of .NET, and it's the only refactoring tool I'll use

And I even gave it the only .NET Dave approved award this year

so if you go to that link devexpress.com slash Donna Dave please go there

and download your copy and Sinema thank you for donating that to everybody watching today so and I hope you will love it as much as I do

Maybe we'll, actually, yesterday I talked to the guy who I know at that company and started

at the company and I'm gonna have him on probably in November. So, that'll be fun

So, I've got a couple more things. So, thanks for watching. We can hang around if C Sharp Corner wants and do some questions

But next week, I have one of my really, really, really, really good friends, Woody Zool, coming on

He is the inventor of mob programming, if you've heard of it

And so he's going to be on next week. So I'm really excited about catching up with Woody and talking about mob programming because it's pretty cool

Please be safe out there. please listen to your medical professionals about COVID-19

I want everybody back next week and I want everybody back, you know when I come to India in the future And so please please listen to them You know my daughter got COVID And so you know this thing is hitting everybody So she fine but it was scary So for me as a father

So I'm also working on a intro music for the show. And I already have all the musicians lined

up and we're going to record a intro song, a rock intro song I'm going to write. And so that will be

coming soon. And, and since I actually know some rock singers that famous rock singers, I'm going

to see if I can tap them to do a little thing at the very end of the song. So with that said

I'm glad everybody's here. Please, please, please email me at donatdaveatlive.com with your

suggestions, comments, you liked it, you didn't like it. Remind me to send you the swag that I

have here for you because I'm forgetful these days. And thanks a lot. So Mahesh, do you want to

keep going or No I think thank you all Unless somebody has questions that was great I think you getting some exciting stuff coming up soon i looking forward to it i think um each show will be exciting it

different than what we've been doing so i'm definitely looking forward to it yeah me too i'm

you've heard me the last couple weeks uh express my excitement over the show so um you know i don't

think I've felt this excited about doing a weekly show before. So yeah, and hopefully you feel

better. I know you went to ER last night. That was, you know, again, you know, these days

crazy days, the hospitals are taking forever. So hopefully you feel better. If it was last night

I wouldn't be here right now. So it was actually Wednesday. So I'm finally, I'm finally

finally starting to show signs of getting better. My only hope on Thursday was to just get through this show

So I did it. Good job. Congratulations. Awesome work. Let's do it again next week

All right. See you guys later. Thank you all. Over and out